PRE-TRIBULATION--POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DEBATE LIVE ON GENESIS TV THIS TUESDAY
Hi friends,This Tuesday evening on Genesis tv LIVE@NINE ( SKY 592) ( http://www.revelationtv.com/watchgen.php) I shall be debating Dr. Richard Kent on the timing of the Rapture.
There will be opportunity to phone in or e-mail with your comments or questions.Please pray the whole debate will be conducted in a spirit of brotherly love.
God bless you in Messiah.
Sunday, July 19, 2009
Monday, May 18, 2009
WHEN DID JESUS SAY THE RAPTURE WOULD TAKE PLACE?
WHEN DID JESUS SAY THE RAPTURE WOULD TAKE PLACE?
by Steve Jackson
WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE?
In answering this question, many Christians will give a typical response of quoting Mt. 24:36 - "But of that day and hour no one knows..." to indicate that we can not know the day or hour of the Rapture. However, they stop there and do not read the next verse where Jesus says, " But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Here He makes it clear that He is speaking of the timing of His Return, which still in the context of verses 29 and 30, is "after the tribulation", when all the world will see Him...an event at the end of the 7 year "week" of Daniel's prophecy....not at the start of the 7 years!!
So, the verse "...of that day and hour no one knows..." does not necessarily refer to the Rapture....unless it is at the end of the 7 years.
Perhaps, because of a mistaken idea on the timing of the rapture, many Christians are not even aware that Jesus Himself did tell us in other places when the Rapture would take place...in fact, the very day of the Rapture, and these other scriptures do not conflict with Mt. 24:36 above.
In fact He told us 4 times exactly which day it would be! So, lets take a look at what else Jesus said so that we can see how this is possible and just what He did say that pertains to the Rapture.
But before we look at what day Jesus said the Rapture would occur, "Rapture" must be defined.
Some Christians say the word "rapture" is not in the scriptures. Well, it depends on what scriptures you're talking about!
The Latin Vulgate Bible is the Latin translation of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts by Jerome completed around 405 A.D., and it does have that word in the section of scripture we are going to look at right now.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you do not sorrow, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those also who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words."
The portion highlighted above in this color in the Latin Vulgate reads: "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus". The Latin word for "shall be caught up" is "rapiemur".
The Latin dictionary says that root for the Latin word "rapiemur" is "rapio" which it says means "to seize , snatch, tear away; to hurry along a person or thing". There you have it.
"Rapture" is a scriptural word...just in a different language (translation)!
Even though it is a scriptural word, because of the association of the word "rapture" with levitation in Hinduistic, Persian, and occultic literature and also in spiritualist circles in the United States and Britain in the 19th and 20th centuries, some Christians do not want to use this term to describe the wonderful event described in these verses. Since the strength of the event is so well described by this choice of the Greek word by the Holy Spirit, it is obvious that some human beings (i.e. Christians saved at this time - both physically living and dead) will get new resurrection bodies and be caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus forever. This event is what the Holy Spirit, Paul and many Christians refer to as the "catching away, seizing or snatching away" of Christians and some other Christians refer to as the Rapture.
It may be time for Christians to claim back this word for this blessed event.
Now the root Greek word for "shall be caught up" is "harpazo" and means "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" which is pretty much the same meaning as "rapiemur"...which is probably why Jerome translated that way!
So, it really does not matter if a person doesn't like the word "rapture", the meaning of either the Latin or Greek word, "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" describes the essence and nature of the event in this scripture passage very, very well. Paul said he got this from the Lord Jesus "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" (verse 15) - maybe he saw it in a vision - and "I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers" (verse13), and he is educating us to TRUTH and doesn't want us to be ignorant of what the Lord Jesus says! If believers are going to be "seized, caught up, carried off by force, snatched away" to meet the Lord "IN THE CLOUDS...IN THE AIR", that ought to be good enough for us too!
With that in mind, take a look at all the places in the New Testament where "harpazo" is used and see how it is used:
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take <726> it by force <726>.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away <726> that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take <726> him by force <726>, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth <726> them, and scattereth the sheep. [How does a wolf get a sheep? "Harpazo" meaning "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" fits here pretty good....wouldn't you say? Well, it's the same way Christians will be "caught away to meet the Lord in the air"!]
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall <726> any man pluck <726> them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck <726> them out of my Father's hand.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away <726> Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. [Note earlier in this section that the angel told Philip to catch up and intercept this man traveling by chariot from Jerusalem to Gaza on a desert route. Take a look of a map of Israel to understand the significance of his being "caught away". Now if Philip was "caught away" from the closest part of that route to Azotus, he would have been "caught away " 10 miles minimum. If it was not at the closest point, it would have been more than 10 miles. How would you like to travel that way with no chariot or car? Well, that is how Christians, who are alive when Jesus comes, will be caught up to Him.]
Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take <726> him by force <726> from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up <726> to the third heaven...4 How that he was caught up <726> into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. [It is believed by most Bible scholars that Paul was speaking humbly about himself being "caught up" because in verses 1-8 he says he does not want to glory in the amount of visions and revelations God gave him.]
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up <726> together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling <726> them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (i.e. Jesus) as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child (i.e. Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (i.e. Jesus) was caught up <726> (i.e. his ascension to heaven 40 days after his resurrection) unto God, and to his throne.
Note that "harpazo" always means to catch, seize, pluck, or take something by force or power. It does not talk of some vague, weak action, but a strong, powerful, violent removal of something. Most of the verses deal with people changing location supernaturally...going from one place on earth to another place on earth, or going to the third heaven, or paradise, or to the throne of God.
Why would being caught up to the clouds in the air in 1 Thes. 4:17 be any different? Well, it isn't!
This event is equated again by both Paul and the Holy Spirit to be one and the same as the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15:35, 51-52. This being the case, then Jesus had very pointed statements as to when these 2 events would take place and at this point, we can now take a look at the 4 times Jesus told us what day would be the day of the Resurrection or the "snatching away"
You will be amazed at the four times in the gospels that Jesus told us when the Resurrection would take place because you have probably read them many times and never really noticed a phrase of three particular words repeated and grasped their significance. Have you ever heard or read them before? Here are those 4 passages:
1) "And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose none, but should raise him up again at the last day." (John 6:39)
Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has given to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
2) "And this is the will of him who sent me…that every one who sees the Son and believes on Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day". (John 6:40)
Dear Reader, are you one that has believed on the Son? If so, Jesus said He would give you eternal life and raise you up on the last day!
3) "No man can come to Me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)
Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has drawn to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
4) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54)
Dear Reader, are you one that has eaten His flesh and drank His blood and has eternal life? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
Jesus tells us 4 times, "…I will raise him up at the last day", but precedes that statement by telling us who he will raise, and most Christians would have to say those 4 preceding descriptions include them! So, Christians would be raised on the Last Day.
Do they include you? If so, you will be raised on the last day too!
When is the Last Day? That is a good question and deserves an honest answer.
In Mt. 24:3 "...the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, 'When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"
(Note on the word "age" in the verse just quoted: The King James Version translates the Greek word "aeon" as "world" whereas Greek lexicons translates it "age", meaning "an unbroken age, perpetuity of time". In fact "aeon" transliterates directly into English as "aeon" or "eon" (look both words up in your English dictionary) from which we have a popular expression…"I haven't seen him for eons (of time)!"
They are saying in effect, "I haven't seen him for ages." The world will not end when Jesus comes back; the age will. "Age" is the correct translation for "aeon".)
Then Jesus gives his reply starting in the next verse. Note the high lighted parts:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Jesus concludes the answer in verses 29-31 with his coming at the end of the age:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus concludes his answer to "when is the end of the age" by giving the signs of his Second Coming to planet Earth.
This is the END OF THE AGE!
Other time expressions occur in the Bible like "last time, last times, latter day, latter days, last days" (you will recall Acts 2:17 "in the last days, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh...") and here under discussion, "last day".
So, the Last Day is the last day of the "latter days" or of the "last days" or of the Age. What could be simpler?
Obviously, "the last day" is a 24 hour day. Paul says the Resurrection (of Christians) will be in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52) and how long does that take? It certainly can't occupy more than one day because it is one split second!
Incidentally, if there were two phases of one Resurrection separated by 7 years, as some people teach, wouldn't there have to be TWO "twinklings of an eye"? Paul would have had to been mistaken in telling us that there was only ONE!
There are still more "at the last day" scriptures we haven't looked at yet, but when have you ever heard an End Time expositor consider what Jesus had to say in these scriptures about when he says the Resurrection will take place?
Let's take a look at another such scripture.
It is John 11:24 where Martha, even with limited teaching from Jesus, understood the simple truth of when Jesus would "raise ALL believers".
"Martha says to Him, 'I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'"
How much better should we know it? So we may not know the particular "day or hour" of the Resurrection on the calendar, but we can know that it is on the "last day" of the Age!
Now since all Christians will be resurrected on the Last Day, then this event is described in different ways in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and Matthew 24:29-31.
Many Christians have been taught that Mt. 24 is for the Jew after Christians have been "snatched out" to be with the Lord (1 Thes. 4:15-17).
However, as it can now be understood that Christians will be raised or changed on the Last Day of the Age, it can be seen that Mt. 24 is really for all believers and applies to Christians (Jew or Gentile) on Earth during that time. Thus, Mt. 24 is far more relevant than what so many have realized. Let's take a look and see what Jesus has to say to us.
Open your Bible to Mt. 24 and take a closer look at the end time events that Jesus gives and notice that they are basically in chronological order as indicated by a liberal supply of time-order indicators like "then" in verses 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 21, 23, 30, 40,
"not yet" in verse 6,
"therefore when" in verse 15, and
"immediately after" in verse 29.
These time-ordering indicators makes it easy to see the chain of events that will happen. They are of the utmost importance in a proper end-time sequence to determine the timing of the rapture.
This whole discourse of Jesus in Mt. 24 was preceded by the disciples asking 3 questions in verse 3: When will these things happen? What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the sign of the end of the age?
Jesus answers them in verses 4 through 31. Read along in your Bible. Here is the order of events:
1) verses 4-8:
Jesus says this period is the "beginning of sorrows" (verse 8) before the tribulation of verse 9 for "the end is not yet" (verse 6). It is the time of escalating political unrest, famines, disease, and geological disturbance, with rising deceptive messianic claims.
2) verses 9-14:
This period is the "sorrows" that Jesus alluded to in verse 8. It is the period of "tribulation" (verse 9), "offenses" growing into "hatred", persecution, and "betrayal" where "lawlessness abounds and love grows cold" making many people ripe for "false prophets that will mislead".
Notice the word "then" being used 4 times here ordering the sequence of events. Notice further that Jesus says that this period ends at his coming and that the end won't occur until the gospel has been preached in all the world and that those "who endure to the end will be saved" (i.e. delivered in the broad sense of the Greek word "sozo").
3) verses 15-28:
This period is the "great tribulation" and starts in verse 15 when Jesus says, "Therefore when [note the time-order indicators] you see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...".
Jesus is referring to what Daniel said, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Dan. 9:27), and "shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination that makes desolate." (Dan. 11:31), and "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up..." (Dan.12:11).
Jesus said that this period of "great tribulation" starts when the Abomination of Desolation appears...which Daniel says takes place in the "middle of the (70th) week". Jesus tells us further that this period goes to the end of the age when He returns.
Incidentally, since Daniel got all this information that was quoted above from the angel, Gabriel, and other angels who obviously got it from God, and Jesus referred to it as being correct, the above chronology and time table is beyond controversy.
Now the middle of the "week" (Hebrew word meaning "seven") of years is 3 1/2 years from the end of the week. This 3 1/2 years is referred to in other portions of the books of Daniel and Revelation as "time, times and half a time", "42 months", or "1260 days". They are one and the same period of time...just different ways of saying it (calculate it out yourself).
For anyone looking for proof of this, Rev. 12:6 and 12:14 equate the "1260 days" and "time, times, and half a time", respectively, and Rev. 11: 2 and 11:3 equate the "42 months" and the "1260 days", respectively.
This time will be so bad that Jesus warns them that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place" of the temple (see also Thes. 2:4), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains".
He tells them not even to go back home and get some clothes, but to drop everything and head for the hills! Maybe that's where the expression came from, "Head for the hills!" He further warns them that those who are pregnant, those who are nursing babies, and indeed, those who are practicing Jews and are limited by the distance they can travel on the Sabbath will suffer additional hardships, not to forget the increased misery all would have to suffer if this event occurs in the winter time.
Note that Jesus' statements, "...standing in the holy place...those in Judea...Sabbath..." indicate local events in Jerusalem, Judea and much of Israel .
It is not that the rest of the world will be untouched by end time events, but that Jesus is relating them to the land of Israel and the Jews who live there because that is where the worst of it will center. The rest of the world will hear about this through the mass media, but for those there in Israel, it will be a worse time than for the rest of the world. That's why Jesus says at this point that it is time to head for the hills!
The reason that Jesus gives these extreme commands to flee in the light of the great suffering people will have to endure is because, "For then [note again the time-order indicators] there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved [i.e. delivered]; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (verses 21, 22).
When Jesus says there never was or will be a time with more tribulation than this, you had better be sure He knows what He is talking about. That is why He is warning us.
Then in verses 23-28, He goes on with another time-order indicator, "Then, if anyone..." further warns them of the great deception that they are ripe for due to their great vulnerability to a whole flurry of false christs and prophets saying that the Christ has already come in secret. He says ignore them because when He, the real Christ comes, it will be as obvious as lightning starting at one end of the sky and streaking and flashing across to the opposite side and that just as the birds are drawn to a carcass, so will the saved be gathered together to him!
Yes, it will be a terrible time..., but it will also be a glorious time for God will show much grace and protection upon His children and many Christians will lead many people to the Lord.
"After these things I looked, and saw a great multitude that no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'. And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might be onto our God forever and ever. Amen!' Then, one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"...he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them" (Rev. 7:9-15).
Yes, this is not a time for Christians to fear, but to prepare for the greatest time and serve God with their whole heart, mind and soul.
If you believe that God did raise Jesus Christ from the dead, but have not yet given your life and will over to God through Jesus Christ, why not make Jesus your Lord, that is master, of your life and confess Him from the heart as your Lord and commit yourself to Him, so that He might save you to Himself and make a new creation out of you (see Romans 10:9-10 and 2 Cor. 5:17).
Then you have no need to fear anything that is coming in the future, for you will have put your life into His hands!
4) verses 29-31:
This period is the "coming of the Son of Man", the Rapture:
"Immediately after [note the time-order indicator again] the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then [another time-order indicator] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mt. 24:29-31)
This period starts "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and concludes with the Resurrection of dead Christians, the changing of living Christians to immortality and catching them all away to be with the Lord on the Last Day. Speaking of the events in the last paragraph, Jesus says in Lk. 21:28, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is very near!"
Why? Because it's the rapture, and Jesus is coming to receive us to Himself! Why "look up and lift your heads"? Because He is coming from "up"..."coming in the clouds of glory"...and "we shall be caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"! The events that happen at this point may be the most stupendous, the most incredible, the most fantastic events that any human being will have ever seen. They start with the heavenly signs that the prophets of old (Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Joel) have prophesied over thousands of years ago. The Church was birthed on Peter's proclamation that the Pentecostal pouring out of God's Holy Spirit was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (see Acts 2:16-21 and Joel 2:28-32) and that God "would show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood, fire, and smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and notable Day of the Lord shall come." This is repeated in Rev. 6:12 as the Sixth Seal. What an awesome, fantastic event. No one will miss this when it happens. This will not be "done in a corner". You would have to be blind in one eye and not be able to see out of the other to miss this!
If this was not enough, "then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".
This is going to be a "two for one special" like none before. On the heels of the first dramatic eye opener will be the Lord's personal appearance and revelation and "Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye will see him...and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).
Perhaps "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" will be a vision of "they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven..." since when he comes back in his physical resurrection body, he can be only in one place physically at a time and obviously that will be in the sky over Jerusalem, and the rest of the world will need a sign and comprehension that something did take place - namely, his return to planet earth! That may be why "all the tribes will mourn" and "every eye will see him".
Now if even this wasn't enough, there's more yet! "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat. 24:31).
This will be 1 Thes. 4:15-17 coming alive! No more of just words on a page. The Incredible will have taken place..."the Lord, himself, shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead shall rise first. Then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."
The archangel and angels will be involved in this at the Lord's command collecting the saints from the "four corners of heaven" " together to meet the Lord to be with him forever."
That trumpet is the Seventh Trumpet of Rev. 11:15-19 which signals the end of the Age and its history.
Some Christians (who are pre-tribulationists) believe the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 is the first "last trumpet" and the Seventh Trumpet will come 7 years later and is the second "last trumpet".
However, there are no two "last trumpets"; there is only one...just as there are not two raptures at the start and end of Daniel's Seventieth Week...just one...and it will be on the Last Day of the Age.
Thank God Jesus told us when the rapture would take place...not only four places and times in John's gospel but also in Matthew 24. We may not be able to say right now what the date is, but we do know it will be "after the tribulation of those days", and we can know the chronology and the number of days between certain events so that we can know when Jesus will come for us.
The closer we get to it, the more obvious will be those things in prophecy which are hard to foresee right now. Thank God Jesus told us the whole scenario that we can understand how simple and straight forward it really will be. These are exciting times to be living in. We could be very close to his coming and to being caught up to be with him forever!
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'" (1 Cor.15:51-55)
by Steve Jackson
WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE?
In answering this question, many Christians will give a typical response of quoting Mt. 24:36 - "But of that day and hour no one knows..." to indicate that we can not know the day or hour of the Rapture. However, they stop there and do not read the next verse where Jesus says, " But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Here He makes it clear that He is speaking of the timing of His Return, which still in the context of verses 29 and 30, is "after the tribulation", when all the world will see Him...an event at the end of the 7 year "week" of Daniel's prophecy....not at the start of the 7 years!!
So, the verse "...of that day and hour no one knows..." does not necessarily refer to the Rapture....unless it is at the end of the 7 years.
Perhaps, because of a mistaken idea on the timing of the rapture, many Christians are not even aware that Jesus Himself did tell us in other places when the Rapture would take place...in fact, the very day of the Rapture, and these other scriptures do not conflict with Mt. 24:36 above.
In fact He told us 4 times exactly which day it would be! So, lets take a look at what else Jesus said so that we can see how this is possible and just what He did say that pertains to the Rapture.
But before we look at what day Jesus said the Rapture would occur, "Rapture" must be defined.
Some Christians say the word "rapture" is not in the scriptures. Well, it depends on what scriptures you're talking about!
The Latin Vulgate Bible is the Latin translation of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts by Jerome completed around 405 A.D., and it does have that word in the section of scripture we are going to look at right now.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you do not sorrow, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those also who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words."
The portion highlighted above in this color in the Latin Vulgate reads: "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus". The Latin word for "shall be caught up" is "rapiemur".
The Latin dictionary says that root for the Latin word "rapiemur" is "rapio" which it says means "to seize , snatch, tear away; to hurry along a person or thing". There you have it.
"Rapture" is a scriptural word...just in a different language (translation)!
Even though it is a scriptural word, because of the association of the word "rapture" with levitation in Hinduistic, Persian, and occultic literature and also in spiritualist circles in the United States and Britain in the 19th and 20th centuries, some Christians do not want to use this term to describe the wonderful event described in these verses. Since the strength of the event is so well described by this choice of the Greek word by the Holy Spirit, it is obvious that some human beings (i.e. Christians saved at this time - both physically living and dead) will get new resurrection bodies and be caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus forever. This event is what the Holy Spirit, Paul and many Christians refer to as the "catching away, seizing or snatching away" of Christians and some other Christians refer to as the Rapture.
It may be time for Christians to claim back this word for this blessed event.
Now the root Greek word for "shall be caught up" is "harpazo" and means "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" which is pretty much the same meaning as "rapiemur"...which is probably why Jerome translated that way!
So, it really does not matter if a person doesn't like the word "rapture", the meaning of either the Latin or Greek word, "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" describes the essence and nature of the event in this scripture passage very, very well. Paul said he got this from the Lord Jesus "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" (verse 15) - maybe he saw it in a vision - and "I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers" (verse13), and he is educating us to TRUTH and doesn't want us to be ignorant of what the Lord Jesus says! If believers are going to be "seized, caught up, carried off by force, snatched away" to meet the Lord "IN THE CLOUDS...IN THE AIR", that ought to be good enough for us too!
With that in mind, take a look at all the places in the New Testament where "harpazo" is used and see how it is used:
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take <726> it by force <726>.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away <726> that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take <726> him by force <726>, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth <726> them, and scattereth the sheep. [How does a wolf get a sheep? "Harpazo" meaning "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" fits here pretty good....wouldn't you say? Well, it's the same way Christians will be "caught away to meet the Lord in the air"!]
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall <726> any man pluck <726> them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck <726> them out of my Father's hand.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away <726> Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. [Note earlier in this section that the angel told Philip to catch up and intercept this man traveling by chariot from Jerusalem to Gaza on a desert route. Take a look of a map of Israel to understand the significance of his being "caught away". Now if Philip was "caught away" from the closest part of that route to Azotus, he would have been "caught away " 10 miles minimum. If it was not at the closest point, it would have been more than 10 miles. How would you like to travel that way with no chariot or car? Well, that is how Christians, who are alive when Jesus comes, will be caught up to Him.]
Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take <726> him by force <726> from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up <726> to the third heaven...4 How that he was caught up <726> into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. [It is believed by most Bible scholars that Paul was speaking humbly about himself being "caught up" because in verses 1-8 he says he does not want to glory in the amount of visions and revelations God gave him.]
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up <726> together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling <726> them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (i.e. Jesus) as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child (i.e. Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (i.e. Jesus) was caught up <726> (i.e. his ascension to heaven 40 days after his resurrection) unto God, and to his throne.
Note that "harpazo" always means to catch, seize, pluck, or take something by force or power. It does not talk of some vague, weak action, but a strong, powerful, violent removal of something. Most of the verses deal with people changing location supernaturally...going from one place on earth to another place on earth, or going to the third heaven, or paradise, or to the throne of God.
Why would being caught up to the clouds in the air in 1 Thes. 4:17 be any different? Well, it isn't!
This event is equated again by both Paul and the Holy Spirit to be one and the same as the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15:35, 51-52. This being the case, then Jesus had very pointed statements as to when these 2 events would take place and at this point, we can now take a look at the 4 times Jesus told us what day would be the day of the Resurrection or the "snatching away"
You will be amazed at the four times in the gospels that Jesus told us when the Resurrection would take place because you have probably read them many times and never really noticed a phrase of three particular words repeated and grasped their significance. Have you ever heard or read them before? Here are those 4 passages:
1) "And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose none, but should raise him up again at the last day." (John 6:39)
Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has given to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
2) "And this is the will of him who sent me…that every one who sees the Son and believes on Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day". (John 6:40)
Dear Reader, are you one that has believed on the Son? If so, Jesus said He would give you eternal life and raise you up on the last day!
3) "No man can come to Me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)
Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has drawn to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
4) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54)
Dear Reader, are you one that has eaten His flesh and drank His blood and has eternal life? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!
Jesus tells us 4 times, "…I will raise him up at the last day", but precedes that statement by telling us who he will raise, and most Christians would have to say those 4 preceding descriptions include them! So, Christians would be raised on the Last Day.
Do they include you? If so, you will be raised on the last day too!
When is the Last Day? That is a good question and deserves an honest answer.
In Mt. 24:3 "...the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, 'When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"
(Note on the word "age" in the verse just quoted: The King James Version translates the Greek word "aeon" as "world" whereas Greek lexicons translates it "age", meaning "an unbroken age, perpetuity of time". In fact "aeon" transliterates directly into English as "aeon" or "eon" (look both words up in your English dictionary) from which we have a popular expression…"I haven't seen him for eons (of time)!"
They are saying in effect, "I haven't seen him for ages." The world will not end when Jesus comes back; the age will. "Age" is the correct translation for "aeon".)
Then Jesus gives his reply starting in the next verse. Note the high lighted parts:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Jesus concludes the answer in verses 29-31 with his coming at the end of the age:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus concludes his answer to "when is the end of the age" by giving the signs of his Second Coming to planet Earth.
This is the END OF THE AGE!
Other time expressions occur in the Bible like "last time, last times, latter day, latter days, last days" (you will recall Acts 2:17 "in the last days, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh...") and here under discussion, "last day".
So, the Last Day is the last day of the "latter days" or of the "last days" or of the Age. What could be simpler?
Obviously, "the last day" is a 24 hour day. Paul says the Resurrection (of Christians) will be in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52) and how long does that take? It certainly can't occupy more than one day because it is one split second!
Incidentally, if there were two phases of one Resurrection separated by 7 years, as some people teach, wouldn't there have to be TWO "twinklings of an eye"? Paul would have had to been mistaken in telling us that there was only ONE!
There are still more "at the last day" scriptures we haven't looked at yet, but when have you ever heard an End Time expositor consider what Jesus had to say in these scriptures about when he says the Resurrection will take place?
Let's take a look at another such scripture.
It is John 11:24 where Martha, even with limited teaching from Jesus, understood the simple truth of when Jesus would "raise ALL believers".
"Martha says to Him, 'I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'"
How much better should we know it? So we may not know the particular "day or hour" of the Resurrection on the calendar, but we can know that it is on the "last day" of the Age!
Now since all Christians will be resurrected on the Last Day, then this event is described in different ways in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and Matthew 24:29-31.
Many Christians have been taught that Mt. 24 is for the Jew after Christians have been "snatched out" to be with the Lord (1 Thes. 4:15-17).
However, as it can now be understood that Christians will be raised or changed on the Last Day of the Age, it can be seen that Mt. 24 is really for all believers and applies to Christians (Jew or Gentile) on Earth during that time. Thus, Mt. 24 is far more relevant than what so many have realized. Let's take a look and see what Jesus has to say to us.
Open your Bible to Mt. 24 and take a closer look at the end time events that Jesus gives and notice that they are basically in chronological order as indicated by a liberal supply of time-order indicators like "then" in verses 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 21, 23, 30, 40,
"not yet" in verse 6,
"therefore when" in verse 15, and
"immediately after" in verse 29.
These time-ordering indicators makes it easy to see the chain of events that will happen. They are of the utmost importance in a proper end-time sequence to determine the timing of the rapture.
This whole discourse of Jesus in Mt. 24 was preceded by the disciples asking 3 questions in verse 3: When will these things happen? What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the sign of the end of the age?
Jesus answers them in verses 4 through 31. Read along in your Bible. Here is the order of events:
1) verses 4-8:
Jesus says this period is the "beginning of sorrows" (verse 8) before the tribulation of verse 9 for "the end is not yet" (verse 6). It is the time of escalating political unrest, famines, disease, and geological disturbance, with rising deceptive messianic claims.
2) verses 9-14:
This period is the "sorrows" that Jesus alluded to in verse 8. It is the period of "tribulation" (verse 9), "offenses" growing into "hatred", persecution, and "betrayal" where "lawlessness abounds and love grows cold" making many people ripe for "false prophets that will mislead".
Notice the word "then" being used 4 times here ordering the sequence of events. Notice further that Jesus says that this period ends at his coming and that the end won't occur until the gospel has been preached in all the world and that those "who endure to the end will be saved" (i.e. delivered in the broad sense of the Greek word "sozo").
3) verses 15-28:
This period is the "great tribulation" and starts in verse 15 when Jesus says, "Therefore when [note the time-order indicators] you see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...".
Jesus is referring to what Daniel said, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Dan. 9:27), and "shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination that makes desolate." (Dan. 11:31), and "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up..." (Dan.12:11).
Jesus said that this period of "great tribulation" starts when the Abomination of Desolation appears...which Daniel says takes place in the "middle of the (70th) week". Jesus tells us further that this period goes to the end of the age when He returns.
Incidentally, since Daniel got all this information that was quoted above from the angel, Gabriel, and other angels who obviously got it from God, and Jesus referred to it as being correct, the above chronology and time table is beyond controversy.
Now the middle of the "week" (Hebrew word meaning "seven") of years is 3 1/2 years from the end of the week. This 3 1/2 years is referred to in other portions of the books of Daniel and Revelation as "time, times and half a time", "42 months", or "1260 days". They are one and the same period of time...just different ways of saying it (calculate it out yourself).
For anyone looking for proof of this, Rev. 12:6 and 12:14 equate the "1260 days" and "time, times, and half a time", respectively, and Rev. 11: 2 and 11:3 equate the "42 months" and the "1260 days", respectively.
This time will be so bad that Jesus warns them that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place" of the temple (see also Thes. 2:4), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains".
He tells them not even to go back home and get some clothes, but to drop everything and head for the hills! Maybe that's where the expression came from, "Head for the hills!" He further warns them that those who are pregnant, those who are nursing babies, and indeed, those who are practicing Jews and are limited by the distance they can travel on the Sabbath will suffer additional hardships, not to forget the increased misery all would have to suffer if this event occurs in the winter time.
Note that Jesus' statements, "...standing in the holy place...those in Judea...Sabbath..." indicate local events in Jerusalem, Judea and much of Israel .
It is not that the rest of the world will be untouched by end time events, but that Jesus is relating them to the land of Israel and the Jews who live there because that is where the worst of it will center. The rest of the world will hear about this through the mass media, but for those there in Israel, it will be a worse time than for the rest of the world. That's why Jesus says at this point that it is time to head for the hills!
The reason that Jesus gives these extreme commands to flee in the light of the great suffering people will have to endure is because, "For then [note again the time-order indicators] there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved [i.e. delivered]; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (verses 21, 22).
When Jesus says there never was or will be a time with more tribulation than this, you had better be sure He knows what He is talking about. That is why He is warning us.
Then in verses 23-28, He goes on with another time-order indicator, "Then, if anyone..." further warns them of the great deception that they are ripe for due to their great vulnerability to a whole flurry of false christs and prophets saying that the Christ has already come in secret. He says ignore them because when He, the real Christ comes, it will be as obvious as lightning starting at one end of the sky and streaking and flashing across to the opposite side and that just as the birds are drawn to a carcass, so will the saved be gathered together to him!
Yes, it will be a terrible time..., but it will also be a glorious time for God will show much grace and protection upon His children and many Christians will lead many people to the Lord.
"After these things I looked, and saw a great multitude that no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'. And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might be onto our God forever and ever. Amen!' Then, one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"...he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them" (Rev. 7:9-15).
Yes, this is not a time for Christians to fear, but to prepare for the greatest time and serve God with their whole heart, mind and soul.
If you believe that God did raise Jesus Christ from the dead, but have not yet given your life and will over to God through Jesus Christ, why not make Jesus your Lord, that is master, of your life and confess Him from the heart as your Lord and commit yourself to Him, so that He might save you to Himself and make a new creation out of you (see Romans 10:9-10 and 2 Cor. 5:17).
Then you have no need to fear anything that is coming in the future, for you will have put your life into His hands!
4) verses 29-31:
This period is the "coming of the Son of Man", the Rapture:
"Immediately after [note the time-order indicator again] the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then [another time-order indicator] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mt. 24:29-31)
This period starts "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and concludes with the Resurrection of dead Christians, the changing of living Christians to immortality and catching them all away to be with the Lord on the Last Day. Speaking of the events in the last paragraph, Jesus says in Lk. 21:28, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is very near!"
Why? Because it's the rapture, and Jesus is coming to receive us to Himself! Why "look up and lift your heads"? Because He is coming from "up"..."coming in the clouds of glory"...and "we shall be caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"! The events that happen at this point may be the most stupendous, the most incredible, the most fantastic events that any human being will have ever seen. They start with the heavenly signs that the prophets of old (Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Joel) have prophesied over thousands of years ago. The Church was birthed on Peter's proclamation that the Pentecostal pouring out of God's Holy Spirit was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (see Acts 2:16-21 and Joel 2:28-32) and that God "would show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood, fire, and smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and notable Day of the Lord shall come." This is repeated in Rev. 6:12 as the Sixth Seal. What an awesome, fantastic event. No one will miss this when it happens. This will not be "done in a corner". You would have to be blind in one eye and not be able to see out of the other to miss this!
If this was not enough, "then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".
This is going to be a "two for one special" like none before. On the heels of the first dramatic eye opener will be the Lord's personal appearance and revelation and "Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye will see him...and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).
Perhaps "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" will be a vision of "they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven..." since when he comes back in his physical resurrection body, he can be only in one place physically at a time and obviously that will be in the sky over Jerusalem, and the rest of the world will need a sign and comprehension that something did take place - namely, his return to planet earth! That may be why "all the tribes will mourn" and "every eye will see him".
Now if even this wasn't enough, there's more yet! "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat. 24:31).
This will be 1 Thes. 4:15-17 coming alive! No more of just words on a page. The Incredible will have taken place..."the Lord, himself, shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead shall rise first. Then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."
The archangel and angels will be involved in this at the Lord's command collecting the saints from the "four corners of heaven" " together to meet the Lord to be with him forever."
That trumpet is the Seventh Trumpet of Rev. 11:15-19 which signals the end of the Age and its history.
Some Christians (who are pre-tribulationists) believe the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 is the first "last trumpet" and the Seventh Trumpet will come 7 years later and is the second "last trumpet".
However, there are no two "last trumpets"; there is only one...just as there are not two raptures at the start and end of Daniel's Seventieth Week...just one...and it will be on the Last Day of the Age.
Thank God Jesus told us when the rapture would take place...not only four places and times in John's gospel but also in Matthew 24. We may not be able to say right now what the date is, but we do know it will be "after the tribulation of those days", and we can know the chronology and the number of days between certain events so that we can know when Jesus will come for us.
The closer we get to it, the more obvious will be those things in prophecy which are hard to foresee right now. Thank God Jesus told us the whole scenario that we can understand how simple and straight forward it really will be. These are exciting times to be living in. We could be very close to his coming and to being caught up to be with him forever!
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'" (1 Cor.15:51-55)
Sunday, May 10, 2009
THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON: WILL EVERYONE ON EARTH DIE?
Hi folks,
still going through Imm's comments and attempting to answer as best as I can.
Please feel free to post a comment below.
Expected Imminently said...
Part 2.
One more try to help you understand another reason why Postrib cannot be Scripturally correct.
Still in Revelation 19.
Postribulation Scenario.
1) At the 2nd Coming, survivors of The Tribulation who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Their mortal bodies will become immortal. The Rapture in 1Corinthians 15:52.
2) Rev.19:15 and 21. At Christ’s 2nd Coming, the sword which comes from Christ’s mouth will kill ALL unbelievers.
3a) So ALL believers are Raptured from the earth into their eternal bodies. They will not be ‘marrying’ to beget children. They will be ‘as the angels’.
3b) And ALL unbelievers are DEAD!
Bob:
Hmmm. Let’s again do what you accuse me of NOT doing; read it all in context:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Bob Continuing:
Remember, friends this is a localised battle on the plain of Armageddon stretching down to Jerusalem itself. The bible says so!
Let’s compare scripture with scripture so as not to take something out of context:
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Bob again:
So it would appear from this that the armies are destroyed not the entire human race.
Concerning your belief that the entire human race on earth is destroyed it is always dangerous to cite just one passage without balancing it out with others. Scripture interprets and expands scripture.
Let’s look at some scriptures below re; your comments and pre-tribulation rapture and post-tribulation rapture .........
The verse you cited 19:15:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Bob: Answer me please, Imm, how can he rule them with a rod of iron if they are all dead?
Also please note the Lord’s words in Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Why would the Lord warn us he is coming as a thief at this time in history (Armageddon) when according to you he is supposed to have come 7 years earlier??
Imm:
4)That means there will be NO believers left to reproduce and repopulate the millennium kingdom.
Bob:
Again I ask let us call on scripture to interpret scripture.
Concerning the Lord’s return Zechariah states:
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Bob again:
This is the Day of the Lord which pre-tribbers claim runs through the entire 7 years but we are plainly told it takes place here at the return of the Lord to earth..I recommend folks read the entire chapter..or maybe chapters 12,13,14 together so you can see when this all takes place.
But let’s continue:
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left (Bob’s emphasis) of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Bob:
So there are people who survive and the Lord rules them with a rod of iron and he will punish the ones who refuse to worship.
Does that sound like the scripture is talking about believers??
No we are reading about survivors those who are left after the Lord returns. These are the ones who the Lord rules with a rod of iron. It is their descendants who finally rebel in Revelation 20...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Bob again:
By the way, strange how the verses above still do not mention the church but “saints” who pre-tribbers say are those people converted in the tribulation.
So after a thousand year we still cannot see the “church”.
Can we?
Unless the pre-trib rapture theory is wrong and the saints mentioned throughout Revelation are the church.
That would mean the “saints” mentioned here in verse 9 are the church.
That makes so much more sense than going all through the New Testament calling the church “saints” until we get to Revelation and then the saints are no longer the church but are magically tribulation converts.
Pre-tribbers are the most amazing contortionists.
Imm:
It is impossible for the Postribulation theory to fit Scripture.
Bob:
Really? I like you Imm and your children’s book has blessed many. But that’s as far as I travel with you. It is the pre-tribulation theory that does not fit scripture but has to be squeezed into a hole it doesn’t fit at all. Post trib is scriptural and no matter how many “pictures” and “types” are produced to support the pre-tribulation theory, it is scripture weighed against scripture and the statements of the Lord Jesus himself that have the final say in the matter.
still going through Imm's comments and attempting to answer as best as I can.
Please feel free to post a comment below.
Expected Imminently said...
Part 2.
One more try to help you understand another reason why Postrib cannot be Scripturally correct.
Still in Revelation 19.
Postribulation Scenario.
1) At the 2nd Coming, survivors of The Tribulation who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Their mortal bodies will become immortal. The Rapture in 1Corinthians 15:52.
2) Rev.19:15 and 21. At Christ’s 2nd Coming, the sword which comes from Christ’s mouth will kill ALL unbelievers.
3a) So ALL believers are Raptured from the earth into their eternal bodies. They will not be ‘marrying’ to beget children. They will be ‘as the angels’.
3b) And ALL unbelievers are DEAD!
Bob:
Hmmm. Let’s again do what you accuse me of NOT doing; read it all in context:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Bob Continuing:
Remember, friends this is a localised battle on the plain of Armageddon stretching down to Jerusalem itself. The bible says so!
Let’s compare scripture with scripture so as not to take something out of context:
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Bob again:
So it would appear from this that the armies are destroyed not the entire human race.
Concerning your belief that the entire human race on earth is destroyed it is always dangerous to cite just one passage without balancing it out with others. Scripture interprets and expands scripture.
Let’s look at some scriptures below re; your comments and pre-tribulation rapture and post-tribulation rapture .........
The verse you cited 19:15:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Bob: Answer me please, Imm, how can he rule them with a rod of iron if they are all dead?
Also please note the Lord’s words in Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Why would the Lord warn us he is coming as a thief at this time in history (Armageddon) when according to you he is supposed to have come 7 years earlier??
Imm:
4)That means there will be NO believers left to reproduce and repopulate the millennium kingdom.
Bob:
Again I ask let us call on scripture to interpret scripture.
Concerning the Lord’s return Zechariah states:
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Bob again:
This is the Day of the Lord which pre-tribbers claim runs through the entire 7 years but we are plainly told it takes place here at the return of the Lord to earth..I recommend folks read the entire chapter..or maybe chapters 12,13,14 together so you can see when this all takes place.
But let’s continue:
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left (Bob’s emphasis) of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Bob:
So there are people who survive and the Lord rules them with a rod of iron and he will punish the ones who refuse to worship.
Does that sound like the scripture is talking about believers??
No we are reading about survivors those who are left after the Lord returns. These are the ones who the Lord rules with a rod of iron. It is their descendants who finally rebel in Revelation 20...
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Bob again:
By the way, strange how the verses above still do not mention the church but “saints” who pre-tribbers say are those people converted in the tribulation.
So after a thousand year we still cannot see the “church”.
Can we?
Unless the pre-trib rapture theory is wrong and the saints mentioned throughout Revelation are the church.
That would mean the “saints” mentioned here in verse 9 are the church.
That makes so much more sense than going all through the New Testament calling the church “saints” until we get to Revelation and then the saints are no longer the church but are magically tribulation converts.
Pre-tribbers are the most amazing contortionists.
Imm:
It is impossible for the Postribulation theory to fit Scripture.
Bob:
Really? I like you Imm and your children’s book has blessed many. But that’s as far as I travel with you. It is the pre-tribulation theory that does not fit scripture but has to be squeezed into a hole it doesn’t fit at all. Post trib is scriptural and no matter how many “pictures” and “types” are produced to support the pre-tribulation theory, it is scripture weighed against scripture and the statements of the Lord Jesus himself that have the final say in the matter.
Friday, May 8, 2009
SOME ANSWERS IN CONTEXT
Hi friends,
I have been accused of taking scripture out of context regarding the evidence for a post-tribulation rapture of the church. So I can do no better than to slowly go over Expected Imminently's (Imm) coments as best as I can.
We end with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Imm. attempts to prove a pre-trib rapture.
I counter this and offer a link to an excellent teaching that runs for just under 4 minutes.
I do hope you can stay and read the entire study below.
For those who cannot here is the link to the short video teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w
I'll start with Imm's most recent posts then move on.
Imm.
Concerning Matt.24 your posts have claimed your understanding comes from ‘the plain meaning of Scripture’. I have already said that the postrib reading of the passage is anything but plain; the reason why is because it is being viewed with ‘hindsight’. Passing time revealed the reality of the Church, and this is the spin put upon this passage. You ‘suppose’, Jesus MUST have mentioned this to His ‘best friends’. Yet this supposition is not stated in the Scripture. It is conjecture.(eisegesis)
Bob:
Actually Imm. I got the feeling these were his close friends from reading scripture where the Lord at certain times spoke to, or took along with him, just these few friends:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and makes them go up with him into a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was changed in form before them; and his face was shining like the sun, and his clothing became white as light.
Mar 5:35 And while he was still talking, they came from the ruler of the Synagogue's house, saying, Your daughter is dead: why are you still troubling the Master?
Mar 5:36 But Jesus, giving no attention to their words, said to the ruler of the Synagogue, Have no fear, only have faith.
Mar 5:37 And he did not let anyone come with him, but Peter and James and John, the brother of James.
Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? there is not one stone here resting on another which will not be overturned.
Mar 13:3 And while he was seated on the Mountain of Olives opposite the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew said to him privately,
Mar 13:4 when these things will be, and what will be the sign of your coming?
Mar 14:32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he said to his disciples, Be seated here while I say a prayer.
Mar 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and grief and great trouble came on him.
Mar 14:34 And he said to them, My soul is very sad, even to death: be here a little time, and keep watch.
And during the Olivet discourse Jesus continually says to these four friends “When you see”. Indicting believers will be there to see the antichrist.
To assign this chapter to the Jews only is nonsense. These men just a few days later became the leaders in the church.
So because this discourse took place before Pentecost am I to ignore its relevance to me because it took place before the so called “birth” of the church?
Well then I should not take the Lord’s supper because he did this with Jews in a Jewish setting before Pentecost.
But we don’t do that do we.
Why? Because only Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse makes us uncomfortable when faced with the fact that Jesus told his four close friends they could see the antichrist. They didn’t. But now in the last of the last days it is very possible we as followers of the Messiah, as they were, may see him.
Imm.
In order to be the perfect sacrifice for our sin, Jesus HAD to ‘lay aside’ His divinity. Human blood, was required; not the blood of animals, so God the Son, HAD to become ‘fully human’, the son of man, as The Word took on flesh. John 1:14.
Bob:
Imm any theologian will tell you Jesus was fully man and fully God. He was not God one day then next he became just a man.
God never changes therefore he took on flesh bust retained full deity. More on this below.
Imm:
I realise you know this, but you haven't applied it to Matt.24.........Taking all the above into full account, I want to look more closely at the much maligned Matt.24.
In vs.3. Jesus disciples asked ‘and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’ In His humanity Jesus plainly says that only the Father ‘knows’ the timing of the end of this present age. Matt.24:36. ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only’.
Bob:
I can understand where you are coming from Imm. But you accuse me of taking scripture out of context so let’s see just what Jesus was talking about here on Olivet when he said no man knows the day or the hour. Let’s do as you say and read it in context.....
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Bob..continuing:
What day and hour are we considering here? A pre-tribulation appearing or a post- tribulation appearing?
It’s a post Tribulation appearing. Read it for yourself several times “in context”.
Pre-tribbers are so fond of using this very verse “not knowing the day or hour” in support of an “any moment” pre-tribulation rapture. But that’s not what is being said here.....is it?
The Lord only mentions his coming “after the tribulation”. But that day and hour (his post tribulation rapture of the elect) no man knows.
Imm:
SERIOUSLY NOW!
1John4:1-3 “ - - By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist,- - - . 2John:7, supports this. This is a serious warning to those who suggest that Jesus is not 100% flesh, just as we are. He lay His God hood, while in the flesh. Certain suggestions made on this blog come into the category of ‘spirit of antichrist’, when denying Jesus did not know the answer to the disciples second question.
Bob:
I have never once suggested Jesus was not 100% human. But he was also 100% God in the flesh. Jesus chose as God not to know. The Father is above the Son and therefore as his authority is over the Son he chose not to reveal to Jesus in the flesh, the day or the hour.
The idea that Jesus divested himself of deity to become man is a well known heresy.
And you suggest some others may have the spirit of antichrist in the way they write???
Check out these men of God :
Robertson’s word pictures:
Php 2:7
The form of a servant (morphēn doulou). He took the characteristic attributes (morphēn as in Phi_2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity.
Vincent’s word studies:
Made Himself of no reputation (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν).
Lit., emptied Himself. The general sense is that He divested Himself of that peculiar mode of existence which was proper and peculiar to Him as one with God. He laid aside the form of God. In so doing, He did not divest Himself of His divine nature. The change was a change of state: the form of a servant for the form of God. His personality continued the same. His self-emptying was not self-extinction, nor was the divine Being changed into a mere man. In His humanity He retained the consciousness of deity, and in His incarnate state carried out the mind which animated Him before His incarnation. He was not unable to assert equality with God. He was able not to assert it.
The Kenosis Controversy
A more subtle heresy regarding the divinity of Christ has to do with a false doctrine called Kenosis. The word Kenosis comes from the Greek word kenoo, which is translated to empty.
The Doctrine of Kenosis
The doctrine comes from a misunderstanding of Philippians 2:7. Here Paul describes how Jesus who was on equal standing with God, emptied himself as He came to earth. The question must be asked, what did Jesus empty himself of?
Contemporary Kenosis Theology
While this has been a long held belief, condemned as heresy as early as the 4th century, and revived with modern liberalism, there is a resurgence of this doctrine among evangelicals, especially in the charismatic community.
The thought process is that Jesus, although still God, emptied himself of his supernatural abilities. He was a man who was enabled to do miracles based upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Expected Imminently said...
Hello Bob
Definition of the Postribulation rapture means it occurs at the same time, or just after, the 2nd Coming at the end of the 7 years.
I am attempting, yet again, to try and explain a major difficulty with this theory.
Part 1. Revelation 19 reveals events of Christ’s return.
A) Vs 7. Tells us the marriage supper is near, and the bride has made herself ready!
B) Vs8. Her clothes are described as white linen, clean and bright. This linen is for the Bride only, because it is called ‘the righteousness of the saint’s”. (As a result of Christ’s blood sacrifice, it is not the clothing of angels).
C) Vs.9. The invitations have gone out, and the supper is near.
D) Vs.11. Heaven opens and Jesus rides out on His white horse.
E) Vs.14. The ‘armies’ that were with Him in heaven, ride out with Him. This ‘army’ is wearing ‘fine linen, white and clean’. ( Vs.8. Has already identified this clothing as belonging to the bride).
Bob:
Okay Imm. let’s do what you suggest so I am not accused of taking scripture out of context.
Let’s read the verses that come before and include some of your verses. We begin with the destruction of Babylon:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Here you disagree with your pre-tribulation teachers. According to pre-tribulationism the marriage supper takes place during the 7 years of the final week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy not at the end of it.
At last we agree.
The bride does not appear until just before the Messiah leaves Heaven for earth.
The scripture you quote above proves it.
So Babylon is destroyed just before we see the multitude in Heaven clothed in white immediately before the Lord rides out for the battle of Armageddon.
According to pre-tribulation teaching, which I heard for over 40 years, the church has been in Heaven for at least 7 years before this event.
They have been waiting 7 years to get clothed??
Imm:
It is clear from these few verses alone, that the Rapture MUST have occurred BEFORE the 2nd Coming.
Jesus is coming WITH His Bride, the Church, in their glorified bodies to catch the 2nd coming events.
Bob:
No my dear Imm. You have missed the whole point. The saints are seen and get dressed after the tribulation...not before!
Then they descend to Armageddon.
Watch this. I discovered this while praying about this post and after I had written most of the above apart.
The following link explains it perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w
I have been accused of taking scripture out of context regarding the evidence for a post-tribulation rapture of the church. So I can do no better than to slowly go over Expected Imminently's (Imm) coments as best as I can.
We end with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Imm. attempts to prove a pre-trib rapture.
I counter this and offer a link to an excellent teaching that runs for just under 4 minutes.
I do hope you can stay and read the entire study below.
For those who cannot here is the link to the short video teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w
I'll start with Imm's most recent posts then move on.
Imm.
Concerning Matt.24 your posts have claimed your understanding comes from ‘the plain meaning of Scripture’. I have already said that the postrib reading of the passage is anything but plain; the reason why is because it is being viewed with ‘hindsight’. Passing time revealed the reality of the Church, and this is the spin put upon this passage. You ‘suppose’, Jesus MUST have mentioned this to His ‘best friends’. Yet this supposition is not stated in the Scripture. It is conjecture.(eisegesis)
Bob:
Actually Imm. I got the feeling these were his close friends from reading scripture where the Lord at certain times spoke to, or took along with him, just these few friends:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and makes them go up with him into a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was changed in form before them; and his face was shining like the sun, and his clothing became white as light.
Mar 5:35 And while he was still talking, they came from the ruler of the Synagogue's house, saying, Your daughter is dead: why are you still troubling the Master?
Mar 5:36 But Jesus, giving no attention to their words, said to the ruler of the Synagogue, Have no fear, only have faith.
Mar 5:37 And he did not let anyone come with him, but Peter and James and John, the brother of James.
Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? there is not one stone here resting on another which will not be overturned.
Mar 13:3 And while he was seated on the Mountain of Olives opposite the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew said to him privately,
Mar 13:4 when these things will be, and what will be the sign of your coming?
Mar 14:32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he said to his disciples, Be seated here while I say a prayer.
Mar 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and grief and great trouble came on him.
Mar 14:34 And he said to them, My soul is very sad, even to death: be here a little time, and keep watch.
And during the Olivet discourse Jesus continually says to these four friends “When you see”. Indicting believers will be there to see the antichrist.
To assign this chapter to the Jews only is nonsense. These men just a few days later became the leaders in the church.
So because this discourse took place before Pentecost am I to ignore its relevance to me because it took place before the so called “birth” of the church?
Well then I should not take the Lord’s supper because he did this with Jews in a Jewish setting before Pentecost.
But we don’t do that do we.
Why? Because only Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse makes us uncomfortable when faced with the fact that Jesus told his four close friends they could see the antichrist. They didn’t. But now in the last of the last days it is very possible we as followers of the Messiah, as they were, may see him.
Imm.
In order to be the perfect sacrifice for our sin, Jesus HAD to ‘lay aside’ His divinity. Human blood, was required; not the blood of animals, so God the Son, HAD to become ‘fully human’, the son of man, as The Word took on flesh. John 1:14.
Bob:
Imm any theologian will tell you Jesus was fully man and fully God. He was not God one day then next he became just a man.
God never changes therefore he took on flesh bust retained full deity. More on this below.
Imm:
I realise you know this, but you haven't applied it to Matt.24.........Taking all the above into full account, I want to look more closely at the much maligned Matt.24.
In vs.3. Jesus disciples asked ‘and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’ In His humanity Jesus plainly says that only the Father ‘knows’ the timing of the end of this present age. Matt.24:36. ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only’.
Bob:
I can understand where you are coming from Imm. But you accuse me of taking scripture out of context so let’s see just what Jesus was talking about here on Olivet when he said no man knows the day or the hour. Let’s do as you say and read it in context.....
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Bob..continuing:
What day and hour are we considering here? A pre-tribulation appearing or a post- tribulation appearing?
It’s a post Tribulation appearing. Read it for yourself several times “in context”.
Pre-tribbers are so fond of using this very verse “not knowing the day or hour” in support of an “any moment” pre-tribulation rapture. But that’s not what is being said here.....is it?
The Lord only mentions his coming “after the tribulation”. But that day and hour (his post tribulation rapture of the elect) no man knows.
Imm:
SERIOUSLY NOW!
1John4:1-3 “ - - By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist,- - - . 2John:7, supports this. This is a serious warning to those who suggest that Jesus is not 100% flesh, just as we are. He lay His God hood, while in the flesh. Certain suggestions made on this blog come into the category of ‘spirit of antichrist’, when denying Jesus did not know the answer to the disciples second question.
Bob:
I have never once suggested Jesus was not 100% human. But he was also 100% God in the flesh. Jesus chose as God not to know. The Father is above the Son and therefore as his authority is over the Son he chose not to reveal to Jesus in the flesh, the day or the hour.
The idea that Jesus divested himself of deity to become man is a well known heresy.
And you suggest some others may have the spirit of antichrist in the way they write???
Check out these men of God :
Robertson’s word pictures:
Php 2:7
The form of a servant (morphēn doulou). He took the characteristic attributes (morphēn as in Phi_2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity.
Vincent’s word studies:
Made Himself of no reputation (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν).
Lit., emptied Himself. The general sense is that He divested Himself of that peculiar mode of existence which was proper and peculiar to Him as one with God. He laid aside the form of God. In so doing, He did not divest Himself of His divine nature. The change was a change of state: the form of a servant for the form of God. His personality continued the same. His self-emptying was not self-extinction, nor was the divine Being changed into a mere man. In His humanity He retained the consciousness of deity, and in His incarnate state carried out the mind which animated Him before His incarnation. He was not unable to assert equality with God. He was able not to assert it.
The Kenosis Controversy
A more subtle heresy regarding the divinity of Christ has to do with a false doctrine called Kenosis. The word Kenosis comes from the Greek word kenoo, which is translated to empty.
The Doctrine of Kenosis
The doctrine comes from a misunderstanding of Philippians 2:7. Here Paul describes how Jesus who was on equal standing with God, emptied himself as He came to earth. The question must be asked, what did Jesus empty himself of?
Contemporary Kenosis Theology
While this has been a long held belief, condemned as heresy as early as the 4th century, and revived with modern liberalism, there is a resurgence of this doctrine among evangelicals, especially in the charismatic community.
The thought process is that Jesus, although still God, emptied himself of his supernatural abilities. He was a man who was enabled to do miracles based upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Expected Imminently said...
Hello Bob
Definition of the Postribulation rapture means it occurs at the same time, or just after, the 2nd Coming at the end of the 7 years.
I am attempting, yet again, to try and explain a major difficulty with this theory.
Part 1. Revelation 19 reveals events of Christ’s return.
A) Vs 7. Tells us the marriage supper is near, and the bride has made herself ready!
B) Vs8. Her clothes are described as white linen, clean and bright. This linen is for the Bride only, because it is called ‘the righteousness of the saint’s”. (As a result of Christ’s blood sacrifice, it is not the clothing of angels).
C) Vs.9. The invitations have gone out, and the supper is near.
D) Vs.11. Heaven opens and Jesus rides out on His white horse.
E) Vs.14. The ‘armies’ that were with Him in heaven, ride out with Him. This ‘army’ is wearing ‘fine linen, white and clean’. ( Vs.8. Has already identified this clothing as belonging to the bride).
Bob:
Okay Imm. let’s do what you suggest so I am not accused of taking scripture out of context.
Let’s read the verses that come before and include some of your verses. We begin with the destruction of Babylon:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Here you disagree with your pre-tribulation teachers. According to pre-tribulationism the marriage supper takes place during the 7 years of the final week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy not at the end of it.
At last we agree.
The bride does not appear until just before the Messiah leaves Heaven for earth.
The scripture you quote above proves it.
So Babylon is destroyed just before we see the multitude in Heaven clothed in white immediately before the Lord rides out for the battle of Armageddon.
According to pre-tribulation teaching, which I heard for over 40 years, the church has been in Heaven for at least 7 years before this event.
They have been waiting 7 years to get clothed??
Imm:
It is clear from these few verses alone, that the Rapture MUST have occurred BEFORE the 2nd Coming.
Jesus is coming WITH His Bride, the Church, in their glorified bodies to catch the 2nd coming events.
Bob:
No my dear Imm. You have missed the whole point. The saints are seen and get dressed after the tribulation...not before!
Then they descend to Armageddon.
Watch this. I discovered this while praying about this post and after I had written most of the above apart.
The following link explains it perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w
Tuesday, April 21, 2009
DVD LINK CORRECTED
Just a quick line folks.
The link on the side bar for the dvd site where you can watch end time message clips has been corrected.
Sorry for any inconvenience...click there and enjoy. God bless.
The link on the side bar for the dvd site where you can watch end time message clips has been corrected.
Sorry for any inconvenience...click there and enjoy. God bless.
Monday, April 20, 2009
MORE COMMENTS PLEASE
Hi Friends,
Just a quick note. We welcome your comments anti or pro post tribulation rapture.
Only please try to keep them in the bonds of love. Come on all you out there. I have noticed a marked increase of hits on this particular site in the last few days so let's hear what you think.
Especially if you are versed in Hebrew or Greek.
Thanks and God bless you.
Just a quick note. We welcome your comments anti or pro post tribulation rapture.
Only please try to keep them in the bonds of love. Come on all you out there. I have noticed a marked increase of hits on this particular site in the last few days so let's hear what you think.
Especially if you are versed in Hebrew or Greek.
Thanks and God bless you.
Saturday, April 18, 2009
THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL PART 2
Hi friends,
As promisd here is my brother in the Lord, Dusty with his second posting on the relationship between the Church and Israel.
I must say I am enjoying this so much as, amazingly, it is the very subject I have been deeply pondering the last few weeks....before Dusty sent me any idea of a subject!
Also I was preaching near Portsmouth the other day when "lo and behold" I was browsing the church books (as is my habit when visiting a church...Maria and I are book freaks) when I came upon a little volume with the title "Old Testament Saints Not Excluded From The Church In Glory". Even the pastor (a dispensationalist) was shocked to see the book in his church.
So as the Lord appears to be leading me through the writings of Dusty, this newly discovered booklet and of course the Bible, perhaps, dear reader, He is leading you also into a better understanding of His dealings with all mankind.
I could say more but will, for the moment, leave you in Dusty's hands and his next posting below.
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POSTING 2
Hi Again :o)
Following on from my introductory post, I’d like to begin this analysis of the relationship between the Church and Israel by offering an explanation (admittedly rough and ready!) as to why I believe this blog, being devoted to the Rapture timing, needs first to settle the matter of that relationship.
Please forgive me if I’ve done a rudimentary job on this. I confess I didn’t spend much time on it. I wanted to concentrate on the ‘meat’ of the posting... If the Church and unsaved Israel are *completely* distinct entities, then this (along with certain Bible verses) strongly promotes the view that God’s focus throughout history is only ever on *one* People during any given ‘age’ or ‘dispensation’.
In turn, this ‘dispensationalist’ view implies a pre-trib Rapture since it is highly improbable that the Church will still be on Earth during “the time of JACOB'S Trouble” (Jer. 30:7), else God would have to be dealing with the Church and Israel (aka Jacob) *simultaneously* - an idea which throws a big spanner into the works of dispensationalism. If, however, there exists an intrinsic relationship between the Church and Israel, dispensationalism goes out of the window, and God can indeed deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously. This would instantly allow a different Rapture timing.
A DRAFT DESCRIPTION OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL
Before I begin this discussion, please be aware that I am not an expert in this field. Also, I wrote the following post in the space of less than 2 days. In other words, please don’t expect it to be faultless! For me, it is a ‘first stab’ at putting this topic down on paper in an organised and remotely complete way. I am very much hoping that other visitors to this blog will offer their constructive advice to help refine it.
INTRODUCTION
In light of Romans 9-11, it is obviously crazy to believe that the Church has replaced physical Israel. Since this blog is only relevant to premillennialists, I don’t intend to waste any time here on exposing the foolishness of replacement theology or ‘Covenantalism’. It would be similarly crazy for anyone to try to deny that God’s ordinances for man have changed at various times since He created Adam. (For instance, Noah was allowed to eat “every moving thing that liveth” (Gen. 9:3) whereas Adam had *not* been allowed to eat animals..)
However, just because the *physical* rules that God has commanded men to live by have changed, it doesn’t automatically follow that the underlying *spiritual* principles for man have changed.
SOME PROBLEMS WITH DISPENSATIONALISM
Before I develop the above point, I’d like to digress briefly to look at some key concerns/problems I have with dispensationalism.
(1) We lose a lot of our Bible!
The New Testament indicates, regarding the Old Testament Scripture, that “ALL [of it] ... is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim. 3:16-17). But dispensationalism tells us that, since the Old Testament was written for a different people in a different ‘age’ (or dispensation), it has almost no relevance for the Church today except as a warning of man’s continual failure to live up to God’s requirements.
As I understand it, the only fragments of the OT that are applicable to the Church are (a) any portions which reappear in the New Testament, and (b) some of the prophecies that pertain to the post-cross period. (I would hope that all OT Scriptures about God’s character and nature are also considered relevant today, but I’m far from sure about this.) Any thinking Christian would accept that the Levitical laws have been 'done away with' in Christ (2 Cor. 3:6-16). But if we pause for a moment we realise that dispensationalism also means we lose, among other wonderful OT passages, virtually the entire book of Proverbs, and the bulk of the book of Psalms too. It is a huge shock to think of the precious Scriptures that have suddenly been stripped from us :o(
It gets worse. Since the Lord Jesus said “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL”, and since the Church is supposedly totally distinct from Israel, we lose much of the gospels too! For example, and as others have said, “Contrary to the dispensationalists’ historic position that the Sermon on the Mount was designed for Israel alone, to define kingdom living, and “is law, not grace” [Scofield Reference Bible, p. 989], historic evangelical orthodoxy sees this great Sermon as applicable to the Church in the present era, applying the Beatitudes (Matt 5:2-12), calling us to be the salt of the earth (Matt 5:13), urging us to build our house on a rock (Matt 7:21-27), directing us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (Matt 6:9-13), and more.” Indeed, when carried to its logical conclusion, dispensationalism ends up by turning its back on much, indeed *most*, of the NEW Testament, let alone the Old. By contrast, my view is that the Old Testament is *not* there largely just as a very, very long proof that mankind is fallen. It contains many valuable things for the Church, including ‘examples’, ‘ensamples’, ‘figures’, ‘types’ and ‘shadows’ proclaiming eternal spiritual truths.
(2) We end up with heresies.
A second worry I have is that dispensationalism ultimately leads to some pretty unarguable heresies. For instance, “Dispensationalists teach that the kingdom was offered, rejected, (by the Jewish People) and postponed until a later age. We pose the question: What if the Jews had accepted Jesus’ offer to establish an earthly Davidic kingdom at His first advent? According to this teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach ... that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation”. When taken towards its *absolute* logical conclusion, dispensationalism leads to several other heresies, as any frank summary of their doctrines by any ‘hyper’ or ‘ultra’ or fully consistent dispensationalist would reveal.
Among other things, I gather it questions the Trinity, the eternal nature of Hell, and even the Bible as God’s Word. Ironically for a worldview supposed to be protecting Israel, it even denies that the creation of the Modern State of Israel is God-ordained (since this idea requires that God does deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously). See E.W.Bullinger’s more candid remarks for proof of my general assertion here.
(3) It results in serious confusion.
God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), but consider the following quote: “Despite the dispensationalists’ popular presentation of seven distinct dispensations as necessary for properly understanding Scripture, scholars within dispensationalism admit that ‘one could have four, five, seven, or eight dispensations and be a consistent dispensationalist’ (Charles Ryrie)”. Consider too that, within the same camp, there are a large number of mutually-exclusive positions held regarding significant details of dispensationalism.
The Bible talks of the “SIMPLICITY that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:3; see also 1:12), yet this doesn’t seem to apply to dispensationalism :o(
Its proponents claim that it provides “a coherent and consistent interpretation” (John Walvoord) yet - as others have noted - “it ends up with one of the most ornate and complex systems in all of evangelical theology, with differing peoples, principles, plans, programs, and destinies”.
Dispensationalists have wisely rejected the notion that the Church has replaced physical Israel. They have rightly been repulsed by the idea. Unfortunately their revulsion has prompted them to go to the other extreme and to see Israel and the Church as not just different but *unrelated*....It is useful to liken the situation to a group of walkers who have reached a fork in the road. The path signposted ‘Replacementism’ is rightly rejected, and the opposite path is selected. This path initially seems very attractive and easy, but around the first corner it starts to get muddy and rocky and steadily more involved as it becomes ever harder to make its tenets agree with the Biblical data (e.g. the fact that the Apostles regularly seem to have forgotten to be dispensational!) The path starts to require all sorts of wriggling and contortions, and even some gymnastics to be performed, in order to make progress. This has the effect of causing different people to stop at different places along the path, depending on their level of determination. (If only they would retrace their steps to the start of the path, they would see that there was a *third* track waiting for them at the crossroads.)
The fact that dispensationalists end up at different points along the path means they have a multitude of different positions on the matter, leading to even more confusion within their circles.
(4) Dispensationalism hardly seems to have existed prior to 1830.
Another worry is that the dispensational view of the relationship between the Church and Israel is, as far as I can see, virtually *unknown* for the bulk of Church history. (I gather there is almost nothing extant about dispensationalism in any writings prior to that of the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza Y Díaz in 1790.) However, I’m not planning to make a major issue out of this, as I believe there are ‘bigger fish to fry’ so to speak :o)
WHO ARE GOD’S PEOPLE?
Let’s finally start to describe this “third path” I’ve been alluding to. I am calling it ‘Principlism’ on the basis that a key idea behind it is that God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8), and thus that His principles (as distinct from His physical commandments) do not change either. (Please Note: Just because I am not aware of this stance having an ‘official’ name does not mean it hasn’t been taught since the Apostles’ day.) It is sensible to start this thesis with the question, Who are God’s People? Are they different today from a previous dispensation?
Any true Christian will accept that the most pivotal event in man’s history is the cross. If there are such things as ‘dispensations’ in the sense dispensationalists believe, we can be confident that the cross points to a new dispensation. So let’s look at the situation before the cross, and then the situation after it. Prior to the cross, God had a people. Israel. But not every Israelite did that which was “right in the sight of the Lord”. If, prior to the cross, every Israelite had suddenly died in an earthquake, not all would have gone to be with the Lord. Thus, there was ‘saved’ Israel and ‘unsaved’ Israel.
If viewed from a spiritual perspective, we can consider them as two peoples (i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel), yet - while they are on the Earth - they are obviously joined in a very fundamental way. They are part of the same family. They are all part of a single nation. They are all part of the wider Israel. So, when it comes to God’s People, what happened *after* the cross? As previously, there still existed saved Jews and unsaved Jews, i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.
The big difference in the post-cross situation was that Gentiles could now be ‘grafted on’ to spiritual Israel *without* having to live as a physical Jew. But the result is still ‘Spiritual Israel’. And what we saw earlier is that ‘Spiritual Israel’ + ‘Earthly Israel’ = Israel. In other words, God’s People are *still* Israel, *still* comprising spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.
Just because God has temporarily put a veil over the eyes of earthly Israel doesn’t mean they are not still His People. Nor does it mean we are allowed to claim they are completely separate from us.
The above paragraph may well leave some folks reeling, so let me justify it further. It needs to be remembered that the new covenant was made with *Israel* not with Gentiles (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8)! We Gentiles are grafted onto a Jewish tree (Rom. 11:11-25) and, no matter how difficult it might be to accept for some of us who have been mistaught about the Jewish People, they are still God’s People. Since we too are God’s People, we should see them as related to us. And since we have been grafted onto a Jewish tree, we are spiritual Jews and (without adopting their non-NT practices, of course) we need to see the Jewish People, in a very real sense, as *our* People. Unlike Ruth (a Gentile) in *Old* Testament days, we post-cross believers don’t need to physically live among Jews in order to be seen by God as joined to Israel, but Ruth did show us the *heart* God calls us to have towards physical Israel. I have tried to think up a good analogy to help illustrate the situation. It seems that different analogies are useful depending on what aspect of the situation we are considering. Thus, when we are discussing the basic question ‘Has the Church replaced Israel, or are they utterly separate entities?’, one might use the analogy of a pair of conjoined (what we used to be allowed to call Siamese) twins to get across the point that there can be a third option.
To get across the fact that the Church and physical Israel are quite closely related to each other, but not desperately similar, I think we could profitably liken the situation to that between an expectant mother and her unborn baby son. To reflect the fact that both earthly and spiritual Israel comprise multiple humans, and to allow for the grafting in of Gentiles, a more advanced analogy might be that of a ‘Top Gun’ flying academy where the students represent earthly Israel and the staff represent spiritual Israel. All are one in the sense that they are all part of the same academy, but there is also a clear demarcation line. And, unlike in times past, the head of the academy (God) now accepts staff from outside the academy.. (Without meaning to promote a works-based salvation, I think this analogy can be taken a little farther still. In vaguely the same sort of way that earthly Israelites can be saved if they give their lives to God, so the academy’s students get to join the staff if they ‘make the grade’.)
I think another valuable analogy for the relationship between physical and spiritual Israel is simply the relationship between a human’s soul and spirit. They are separate, yet plainly linked in a fundamental manner. And they unavoidably remain that way until death. (By the way, please don’t push any of these analogies too far!)
However, I suspect the best analogy is the one God clearly gave us in His Word. That of an olive tree: “[I]f some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.” (Rom. 11:16-18)
BIBLE SUPPORT
Does the Bible clearly teach the idea I have described above? Apart from the fairly inescapable Romans 11 passage cited a moment ago, there is plenty of other support:
(1) Gentile Christians are described as spiritual children of Abraham, even though he supposedly lived in a totally different dispensation:-- Romans was surely written to the Church, yet Romans 4:16 describes Abraham as “the father of us ALL”.-- Likewise, Galatians is written to the Church, yet it says, “if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed” (3:29) and “they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (3:7).-- 1 Peter 3:6 says to Gentile women that they are “Abraham[’s] daughters ..., as long as [they] do well”.
(2) The NT says we have joined the “commonwealth of Israel”..I urge every visitor who doubts what I am saying to read Ephesians 2:11-22 where we Gentiles are told we were, in our unsaved state, “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” but that we “are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God”. Do these verses really point to us being totally distinct from Israel? Do they not rather teach we are somewhat 'joined at the hip'? See especially vv 14-15.
(3) The Bible seems to have a significantly higher view of its (supposedly obsolete) sections than dispensationalists appear to have.-- Far from saying things like 'God’s commandments are designed to be totally redundant to future dispensations', the Bible says “*all* His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever” (Psa. 111:7b-8a). (NOTE: This does *not* mean we are still supposed to physically *obey* all the OT commandments [I currently happen to believe that the 10 commandments do still apply - as long as we understand that Christ is our Sabbath now], but it does mean they have relevance for us - e.g. in that they provide physical pictures of spiritual truths about Christ or His cross or the future etc.)-- I defy any sincere dispensationalist to read Psalm 19 and Psalm 119 and then claim that the overwhelming majority of the Old Testament is thoroughly redundant now, especially in view of the fact that the OT was the only Bible the Church possessed in its earliest days (see 2 Tim. 3:14-15 for a very salutary statement on this issue).
(4) Time and again the plain meaning of the writings of the Apostles points *away* from dispensationalism and is in obvious accord with Principlism. Here are just a few of the many examples one could list:-- The epistle of James is clearly written to believers, yet it is *only* addressed to “the twelve tribes”. Either James made a mistake when he addressed his epistle like this (which is impossible), or Gentile believers are spiritually grafted onto the commonwealth of *Israel* (or “the twelve tribes”, as Israel is sometimes called).-- Romans says, regarding the OT record of Abraham’s faith being imputed to him for righteousness, “it was not written for his sake *alone* ... But for US ALSO...” (Rom. 4:22-24a).-- In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul writes “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn...” Paul patently informs the Church of an administrative principle on the basis of what the *Old* Testament says. (See also 1 Cor. 9:9-10.)--
For a particularly unavoidable passage showing that spiritual principles revealed in the Old Testament still apply for the Church, see 1 Cor. 10:1-11.
(5) Miscellaneous reasons to believe in Principlism include:-- Even after the cross, God still identifies Himself as “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob” (Acts 3:13; see also 7:32). It is perhaps a small point, but He never describes Himself as “the God of the Church”.-- Put simply, if we are in Christ, and if Christ is Jewish (which He is - see Rev. 5:5), then we are, in a *way*, Jewish. Again, if He is “King of the Jews”, and yet is *our* King, are we not spiritual Jews?-- Like 1980s fashion, Israel is ‘coming back’. God has promised to restore her. If the old dispensations are truly all obsolete, it seems a little odd that God hasn’t given up on Israel but has instead decided to ‘turn His attention back to her’ in the last days. It is even stranger to realise that Christ’s earthly reign is going to see the Jewish *feasts* reinstated (Zech. 14:16; 8:19). And it is positively bizarre to find that the Levitical priesthood will be restored in the Millennium (Isa. 66:20, Ezek. 44:11).
A WARNING
We Gentiles are part of spiritual Israel, but we are NOT part of *physical* Israel. If God made a promise to physical Israel which had not been completely fulfilled by the time the canon of Scripture was closed, we Gentiles cannot afford to spiritualise it or apply it to ourselves in any way until Christ returns. I cannot emphasize that point strongly enough. We must be careful never to steal promises made to physical Israel.
SUMMARY
We “wild” Gentile branches have been grafted on to a naturally Jewish tree, which has a Jewish root (Rom. 11:17-18). We have been adopted (not unlike Rahab, and other Gentiles in the Old Testament) into the wider Israel. Through Jesus Christ (an Israelite) we have become spiritual “sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7,29). We are now part of the “Commonwealth of Israel” (Eph. 2:12), part of the same sheepfold (John 10:16).
Although the physical rules for God’s People vary from time to time (and for good reasons, e.g. changes to our environment after the Flood), God Himself does not change – and nor does fallen mankind for that matter – so the human race is always subject to the same spiritual principles throughout the ages. Thus, while the physical rules and literal promises given to physical Israel do not apply to the Church, the *spiritual* principles that applied to God’s People before the cross still apply today.
I believe a straightforward, reverential, and balanced reading of the New Testament reveals that the apostles taught Principlism and used it whenever they interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures.
Huge thanks for your patience during this very long posting.
Looking forward to your feedback, especially if it is written in a godly way (Gal. 5:22-23) :o)Dusty
As promisd here is my brother in the Lord, Dusty with his second posting on the relationship between the Church and Israel.
I must say I am enjoying this so much as, amazingly, it is the very subject I have been deeply pondering the last few weeks....before Dusty sent me any idea of a subject!
Also I was preaching near Portsmouth the other day when "lo and behold" I was browsing the church books (as is my habit when visiting a church...Maria and I are book freaks) when I came upon a little volume with the title "Old Testament Saints Not Excluded From The Church In Glory". Even the pastor (a dispensationalist) was shocked to see the book in his church.
So as the Lord appears to be leading me through the writings of Dusty, this newly discovered booklet and of course the Bible, perhaps, dear reader, He is leading you also into a better understanding of His dealings with all mankind.
I could say more but will, for the moment, leave you in Dusty's hands and his next posting below.
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POSTING 2
Hi Again :o)
Following on from my introductory post, I’d like to begin this analysis of the relationship between the Church and Israel by offering an explanation (admittedly rough and ready!) as to why I believe this blog, being devoted to the Rapture timing, needs first to settle the matter of that relationship.
Please forgive me if I’ve done a rudimentary job on this. I confess I didn’t spend much time on it. I wanted to concentrate on the ‘meat’ of the posting... If the Church and unsaved Israel are *completely* distinct entities, then this (along with certain Bible verses) strongly promotes the view that God’s focus throughout history is only ever on *one* People during any given ‘age’ or ‘dispensation’.
In turn, this ‘dispensationalist’ view implies a pre-trib Rapture since it is highly improbable that the Church will still be on Earth during “the time of JACOB'S Trouble” (Jer. 30:7), else God would have to be dealing with the Church and Israel (aka Jacob) *simultaneously* - an idea which throws a big spanner into the works of dispensationalism. If, however, there exists an intrinsic relationship between the Church and Israel, dispensationalism goes out of the window, and God can indeed deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously. This would instantly allow a different Rapture timing.
A DRAFT DESCRIPTION OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL
Before I begin this discussion, please be aware that I am not an expert in this field. Also, I wrote the following post in the space of less than 2 days. In other words, please don’t expect it to be faultless! For me, it is a ‘first stab’ at putting this topic down on paper in an organised and remotely complete way. I am very much hoping that other visitors to this blog will offer their constructive advice to help refine it.
INTRODUCTION
In light of Romans 9-11, it is obviously crazy to believe that the Church has replaced physical Israel. Since this blog is only relevant to premillennialists, I don’t intend to waste any time here on exposing the foolishness of replacement theology or ‘Covenantalism’. It would be similarly crazy for anyone to try to deny that God’s ordinances for man have changed at various times since He created Adam. (For instance, Noah was allowed to eat “every moving thing that liveth” (Gen. 9:3) whereas Adam had *not* been allowed to eat animals..)
However, just because the *physical* rules that God has commanded men to live by have changed, it doesn’t automatically follow that the underlying *spiritual* principles for man have changed.
SOME PROBLEMS WITH DISPENSATIONALISM
Before I develop the above point, I’d like to digress briefly to look at some key concerns/problems I have with dispensationalism.
(1) We lose a lot of our Bible!
The New Testament indicates, regarding the Old Testament Scripture, that “ALL [of it] ... is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim. 3:16-17). But dispensationalism tells us that, since the Old Testament was written for a different people in a different ‘age’ (or dispensation), it has almost no relevance for the Church today except as a warning of man’s continual failure to live up to God’s requirements.
As I understand it, the only fragments of the OT that are applicable to the Church are (a) any portions which reappear in the New Testament, and (b) some of the prophecies that pertain to the post-cross period. (I would hope that all OT Scriptures about God’s character and nature are also considered relevant today, but I’m far from sure about this.) Any thinking Christian would accept that the Levitical laws have been 'done away with' in Christ (2 Cor. 3:6-16). But if we pause for a moment we realise that dispensationalism also means we lose, among other wonderful OT passages, virtually the entire book of Proverbs, and the bulk of the book of Psalms too. It is a huge shock to think of the precious Scriptures that have suddenly been stripped from us :o(
It gets worse. Since the Lord Jesus said “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL”, and since the Church is supposedly totally distinct from Israel, we lose much of the gospels too! For example, and as others have said, “Contrary to the dispensationalists’ historic position that the Sermon on the Mount was designed for Israel alone, to define kingdom living, and “is law, not grace” [Scofield Reference Bible, p. 989], historic evangelical orthodoxy sees this great Sermon as applicable to the Church in the present era, applying the Beatitudes (Matt 5:2-12), calling us to be the salt of the earth (Matt 5:13), urging us to build our house on a rock (Matt 7:21-27), directing us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (Matt 6:9-13), and more.” Indeed, when carried to its logical conclusion, dispensationalism ends up by turning its back on much, indeed *most*, of the NEW Testament, let alone the Old. By contrast, my view is that the Old Testament is *not* there largely just as a very, very long proof that mankind is fallen. It contains many valuable things for the Church, including ‘examples’, ‘ensamples’, ‘figures’, ‘types’ and ‘shadows’ proclaiming eternal spiritual truths.
(2) We end up with heresies.
A second worry I have is that dispensationalism ultimately leads to some pretty unarguable heresies. For instance, “Dispensationalists teach that the kingdom was offered, rejected, (by the Jewish People) and postponed until a later age. We pose the question: What if the Jews had accepted Jesus’ offer to establish an earthly Davidic kingdom at His first advent? According to this teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach ... that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation”. When taken towards its *absolute* logical conclusion, dispensationalism leads to several other heresies, as any frank summary of their doctrines by any ‘hyper’ or ‘ultra’ or fully consistent dispensationalist would reveal.
Among other things, I gather it questions the Trinity, the eternal nature of Hell, and even the Bible as God’s Word. Ironically for a worldview supposed to be protecting Israel, it even denies that the creation of the Modern State of Israel is God-ordained (since this idea requires that God does deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously). See E.W.Bullinger’s more candid remarks for proof of my general assertion here.
(3) It results in serious confusion.
God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), but consider the following quote: “Despite the dispensationalists’ popular presentation of seven distinct dispensations as necessary for properly understanding Scripture, scholars within dispensationalism admit that ‘one could have four, five, seven, or eight dispensations and be a consistent dispensationalist’ (Charles Ryrie)”. Consider too that, within the same camp, there are a large number of mutually-exclusive positions held regarding significant details of dispensationalism.
The Bible talks of the “SIMPLICITY that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:3; see also 1:12), yet this doesn’t seem to apply to dispensationalism :o(
Its proponents claim that it provides “a coherent and consistent interpretation” (John Walvoord) yet - as others have noted - “it ends up with one of the most ornate and complex systems in all of evangelical theology, with differing peoples, principles, plans, programs, and destinies”.
Dispensationalists have wisely rejected the notion that the Church has replaced physical Israel. They have rightly been repulsed by the idea. Unfortunately their revulsion has prompted them to go to the other extreme and to see Israel and the Church as not just different but *unrelated*....It is useful to liken the situation to a group of walkers who have reached a fork in the road. The path signposted ‘Replacementism’ is rightly rejected, and the opposite path is selected. This path initially seems very attractive and easy, but around the first corner it starts to get muddy and rocky and steadily more involved as it becomes ever harder to make its tenets agree with the Biblical data (e.g. the fact that the Apostles regularly seem to have forgotten to be dispensational!) The path starts to require all sorts of wriggling and contortions, and even some gymnastics to be performed, in order to make progress. This has the effect of causing different people to stop at different places along the path, depending on their level of determination. (If only they would retrace their steps to the start of the path, they would see that there was a *third* track waiting for them at the crossroads.)
The fact that dispensationalists end up at different points along the path means they have a multitude of different positions on the matter, leading to even more confusion within their circles.
(4) Dispensationalism hardly seems to have existed prior to 1830.
Another worry is that the dispensational view of the relationship between the Church and Israel is, as far as I can see, virtually *unknown* for the bulk of Church history. (I gather there is almost nothing extant about dispensationalism in any writings prior to that of the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza Y Díaz in 1790.) However, I’m not planning to make a major issue out of this, as I believe there are ‘bigger fish to fry’ so to speak :o)
WHO ARE GOD’S PEOPLE?
Let’s finally start to describe this “third path” I’ve been alluding to. I am calling it ‘Principlism’ on the basis that a key idea behind it is that God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8), and thus that His principles (as distinct from His physical commandments) do not change either. (Please Note: Just because I am not aware of this stance having an ‘official’ name does not mean it hasn’t been taught since the Apostles’ day.) It is sensible to start this thesis with the question, Who are God’s People? Are they different today from a previous dispensation?
Any true Christian will accept that the most pivotal event in man’s history is the cross. If there are such things as ‘dispensations’ in the sense dispensationalists believe, we can be confident that the cross points to a new dispensation. So let’s look at the situation before the cross, and then the situation after it. Prior to the cross, God had a people. Israel. But not every Israelite did that which was “right in the sight of the Lord”. If, prior to the cross, every Israelite had suddenly died in an earthquake, not all would have gone to be with the Lord. Thus, there was ‘saved’ Israel and ‘unsaved’ Israel.
If viewed from a spiritual perspective, we can consider them as two peoples (i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel), yet - while they are on the Earth - they are obviously joined in a very fundamental way. They are part of the same family. They are all part of a single nation. They are all part of the wider Israel. So, when it comes to God’s People, what happened *after* the cross? As previously, there still existed saved Jews and unsaved Jews, i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.
The big difference in the post-cross situation was that Gentiles could now be ‘grafted on’ to spiritual Israel *without* having to live as a physical Jew. But the result is still ‘Spiritual Israel’. And what we saw earlier is that ‘Spiritual Israel’ + ‘Earthly Israel’ = Israel. In other words, God’s People are *still* Israel, *still* comprising spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.
Just because God has temporarily put a veil over the eyes of earthly Israel doesn’t mean they are not still His People. Nor does it mean we are allowed to claim they are completely separate from us.
The above paragraph may well leave some folks reeling, so let me justify it further. It needs to be remembered that the new covenant was made with *Israel* not with Gentiles (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8)! We Gentiles are grafted onto a Jewish tree (Rom. 11:11-25) and, no matter how difficult it might be to accept for some of us who have been mistaught about the Jewish People, they are still God’s People. Since we too are God’s People, we should see them as related to us. And since we have been grafted onto a Jewish tree, we are spiritual Jews and (without adopting their non-NT practices, of course) we need to see the Jewish People, in a very real sense, as *our* People. Unlike Ruth (a Gentile) in *Old* Testament days, we post-cross believers don’t need to physically live among Jews in order to be seen by God as joined to Israel, but Ruth did show us the *heart* God calls us to have towards physical Israel. I have tried to think up a good analogy to help illustrate the situation. It seems that different analogies are useful depending on what aspect of the situation we are considering. Thus, when we are discussing the basic question ‘Has the Church replaced Israel, or are they utterly separate entities?’, one might use the analogy of a pair of conjoined (what we used to be allowed to call Siamese) twins to get across the point that there can be a third option.
To get across the fact that the Church and physical Israel are quite closely related to each other, but not desperately similar, I think we could profitably liken the situation to that between an expectant mother and her unborn baby son. To reflect the fact that both earthly and spiritual Israel comprise multiple humans, and to allow for the grafting in of Gentiles, a more advanced analogy might be that of a ‘Top Gun’ flying academy where the students represent earthly Israel and the staff represent spiritual Israel. All are one in the sense that they are all part of the same academy, but there is also a clear demarcation line. And, unlike in times past, the head of the academy (God) now accepts staff from outside the academy.. (Without meaning to promote a works-based salvation, I think this analogy can be taken a little farther still. In vaguely the same sort of way that earthly Israelites can be saved if they give their lives to God, so the academy’s students get to join the staff if they ‘make the grade’.)
I think another valuable analogy for the relationship between physical and spiritual Israel is simply the relationship between a human’s soul and spirit. They are separate, yet plainly linked in a fundamental manner. And they unavoidably remain that way until death. (By the way, please don’t push any of these analogies too far!)
However, I suspect the best analogy is the one God clearly gave us in His Word. That of an olive tree: “[I]f some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.” (Rom. 11:16-18)
BIBLE SUPPORT
Does the Bible clearly teach the idea I have described above? Apart from the fairly inescapable Romans 11 passage cited a moment ago, there is plenty of other support:
(1) Gentile Christians are described as spiritual children of Abraham, even though he supposedly lived in a totally different dispensation:-- Romans was surely written to the Church, yet Romans 4:16 describes Abraham as “the father of us ALL”.-- Likewise, Galatians is written to the Church, yet it says, “if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed” (3:29) and “they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (3:7).-- 1 Peter 3:6 says to Gentile women that they are “Abraham[’s] daughters ..., as long as [they] do well”.
(2) The NT says we have joined the “commonwealth of Israel”..I urge every visitor who doubts what I am saying to read Ephesians 2:11-22 where we Gentiles are told we were, in our unsaved state, “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” but that we “are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God”. Do these verses really point to us being totally distinct from Israel? Do they not rather teach we are somewhat 'joined at the hip'? See especially vv 14-15.
(3) The Bible seems to have a significantly higher view of its (supposedly obsolete) sections than dispensationalists appear to have.-- Far from saying things like 'God’s commandments are designed to be totally redundant to future dispensations', the Bible says “*all* His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever” (Psa. 111:7b-8a). (NOTE: This does *not* mean we are still supposed to physically *obey* all the OT commandments [I currently happen to believe that the 10 commandments do still apply - as long as we understand that Christ is our Sabbath now], but it does mean they have relevance for us - e.g. in that they provide physical pictures of spiritual truths about Christ or His cross or the future etc.)-- I defy any sincere dispensationalist to read Psalm 19 and Psalm 119 and then claim that the overwhelming majority of the Old Testament is thoroughly redundant now, especially in view of the fact that the OT was the only Bible the Church possessed in its earliest days (see 2 Tim. 3:14-15 for a very salutary statement on this issue).
(4) Time and again the plain meaning of the writings of the Apostles points *away* from dispensationalism and is in obvious accord with Principlism. Here are just a few of the many examples one could list:-- The epistle of James is clearly written to believers, yet it is *only* addressed to “the twelve tribes”. Either James made a mistake when he addressed his epistle like this (which is impossible), or Gentile believers are spiritually grafted onto the commonwealth of *Israel* (or “the twelve tribes”, as Israel is sometimes called).-- Romans says, regarding the OT record of Abraham’s faith being imputed to him for righteousness, “it was not written for his sake *alone* ... But for US ALSO...” (Rom. 4:22-24a).-- In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul writes “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn...” Paul patently informs the Church of an administrative principle on the basis of what the *Old* Testament says. (See also 1 Cor. 9:9-10.)--
For a particularly unavoidable passage showing that spiritual principles revealed in the Old Testament still apply for the Church, see 1 Cor. 10:1-11.
(5) Miscellaneous reasons to believe in Principlism include:-- Even after the cross, God still identifies Himself as “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob” (Acts 3:13; see also 7:32). It is perhaps a small point, but He never describes Himself as “the God of the Church”.-- Put simply, if we are in Christ, and if Christ is Jewish (which He is - see Rev. 5:5), then we are, in a *way*, Jewish. Again, if He is “King of the Jews”, and yet is *our* King, are we not spiritual Jews?-- Like 1980s fashion, Israel is ‘coming back’. God has promised to restore her. If the old dispensations are truly all obsolete, it seems a little odd that God hasn’t given up on Israel but has instead decided to ‘turn His attention back to her’ in the last days. It is even stranger to realise that Christ’s earthly reign is going to see the Jewish *feasts* reinstated (Zech. 14:16; 8:19). And it is positively bizarre to find that the Levitical priesthood will be restored in the Millennium (Isa. 66:20, Ezek. 44:11).
A WARNING
We Gentiles are part of spiritual Israel, but we are NOT part of *physical* Israel. If God made a promise to physical Israel which had not been completely fulfilled by the time the canon of Scripture was closed, we Gentiles cannot afford to spiritualise it or apply it to ourselves in any way until Christ returns. I cannot emphasize that point strongly enough. We must be careful never to steal promises made to physical Israel.
SUMMARY
We “wild” Gentile branches have been grafted on to a naturally Jewish tree, which has a Jewish root (Rom. 11:17-18). We have been adopted (not unlike Rahab, and other Gentiles in the Old Testament) into the wider Israel. Through Jesus Christ (an Israelite) we have become spiritual “sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7,29). We are now part of the “Commonwealth of Israel” (Eph. 2:12), part of the same sheepfold (John 10:16).
Although the physical rules for God’s People vary from time to time (and for good reasons, e.g. changes to our environment after the Flood), God Himself does not change – and nor does fallen mankind for that matter – so the human race is always subject to the same spiritual principles throughout the ages. Thus, while the physical rules and literal promises given to physical Israel do not apply to the Church, the *spiritual* principles that applied to God’s People before the cross still apply today.
I believe a straightforward, reverential, and balanced reading of the New Testament reveals that the apostles taught Principlism and used it whenever they interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures.
Huge thanks for your patience during this very long posting.
Looking forward to your feedback, especially if it is written in a godly way (Gal. 5:22-23) :o)Dusty
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