POST TRIBULATION FORUM

POST TRIB LETTER TO A FRIEND

2010-07-17T13:15:00.000-07:00

I recently had a letter from a dear friend who is a pre tribber.

I had asked for comments on my post trib dvd.

This is my reply:

Dear .....,
Many thanks for your letter on the recent videos. Iron sharpens iron and I am grateful for the time you must have spent in preparing this.
So let’s get to it.

First: Of course we are friends. Your love for Maria and me is obvious and very much appreciated and reciprocated.
You know how much we love seeing you and the fun we always have together is something Maria and I so enjoy.

Sorry the music and opening statement were not to your taste. You are not the first to say so. Some of my other pre-trib friends don’t like the music either.
Also the statement is something some of them disagree with too, if for different reasons than yours.
They think it is too long winded.
Others, like my pre-trib friend Simon who makes the professional dvds, like it.
No accounting for taste. But if I am honest the majority vote with you on the music.
Actually, ..... the opening statement wasn’t “these people say they understand the Bible”. It was “They tell us we have nothing to fear” followed by “They claim to know the Bible”.
“They claim to know” is a bit different from “These people say they understand..” and a little softer on the ears as “These people” would sound quite dismissive and proud.

I know it is a small difference but I believe an important one.
Also is it not true that prophecy teachers DO claim to know the Bible? If you do not feel you have a grasp of the scriptures what right do we have to stand in a pulpit? So on that basis I feel my statement stands and is not derogatory or insulting but a statement of fact.

I try my best never to come over as a know it all otherwise I wouldn’t include in my conversations with you “I hope I am wrong and you are right”.

I don’t know about ..........., but I know when you and I debate we use scriptures to back our point as often as possible.

To say, as does ........., we must not be too dogmatic about the rapture timing and the tribulation seems odd to me when Jesus Himself told us when He would return to gather the elect….but more on that later.

Believe me, I am as sure as I can be the rapture is not pre-trib. My saying I hope you are right is just that; a saying. And we must always leave that opening for the scripture we may have missed that clarifies the pre-trib position. Though I haven’t had anyone give it to me even though I would love to see it.

Regardless of what Tim La Haye says about post tribbers I do not know one who wants to go through the tribulation. La Haye thinks we look forward to it.
Now if that isn’t an insulting statement what is?

You quoted Luke 21:34 Don’t be overcome with dissipation and cares of this life
Dissipation means (I know you know this) unrestrained indulgence in physical pleasures, especially alcohol, excessive expenditure; wastefulness.

Combine that with the anxieties of life or in the Greek: Merimna meaning distraction and I think you have a picture of a backslider; one falling away and losing his or her salvation should they not repent before the Lord’s return.

Also you write “the context is (from verse 25 onwards) the last days”. But if we compare scripture with scripture it is clear when we look at verse 25 onwards we are looking at events coming up to the end of, and AFTER, the tribulation not during or before: compare Matt:24:26-31

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:21-27
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21: 25-28
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice in each of these gospels the Lord Jesus tells us when He will return and collect the elect. He even tells His disciples, which I agree with you means all believers, that at this time and at no previous time they are to “look up for your redemption draws nigh”.

It seems a mystery to me that many will use Matthew 24 and say it is for the Jews, then read the same Olivet discourse in Luke 21 and say “look up for your redemption draws nigh” is not for the Jews but for all believers and a pre tribulation rapture. This is the same Olivet Discourse which folks say is for the Jews in Matthew and Christians in Luke!!

The events Jesus had just immediately mentioned in Luke 21: 25 onward were post tribulational and match perfectly with Matt 24’s “Immediately after the tribulation”…then the gathering of the elect follows.

Some good, sincere guys also go for a partial rapture where those who are ready are raptured while the rest are left to be purified in the tribulation and are collected at the end.
But we must remember the foolish virgins did not go through the night (tribulation) and then get into the wedding. They were cast out and there is no mention of a second chance. Again backsliders come to mind who have no oil (Spirit).

One other thing, the groom came at the darkest hour not before the night came...pre-trib.
So I for one can’t see a partial rapture leaving the rest to get their act cleaned up. Instead I see the groom arriving at the darkest time then judging those unfaithful servants, foolish virgins etc.

The next passage you quoted was 2 Thes. 2.
The first word I think we need to look at is not apostasia but Parousia which every pre-tribber I know of (Ice, La Haye etc) says is the pre-trib rapture even though the word is usually placed in a post trib scenario in the scriptures.

In 2Thes. 2:1 Paul mentions 'our gathering' after the Parousia. First the Parousia (coming) then the gathering.
Several verses later (2:8) Paul mentions the Parousia again but it is definitely in a post trib scenario.
Immediately before these verses, in 2 Thess. 1:6-10, Paul is speaking about Jesus’ post- tribulation coming and he says in verse 6,7 that it is then we shall have rest when He is revealed in flaming fire, not before, which ties in with Matt.24: 31, 1 Thes. 4, Rev.6, 14 and 19.

So it would seem odd to be writing in 2 Thes. chapter 1 about the Lord’s post trib parousia promising rest at that time and not before, then to write in chapter 2 about a pre trib parousia in verse 1and then to continue to write about a post trib parousia in 2:8.

Also in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 the disciples asked the Lord for the sign of His Parousia and He replied by telling them of His post tribulational return for the elect……not one hint of a pre-trib rapture. Ever.

Okay so let’s look at Apostasia. In the Greek of Paul’s day the word apostasia meant a departure from a religious or political affiliation. In fact the word was still used to mean the same in 1965 when members of a Greek trade union defected causing the toppling of Greek Prime minister Papendreou. These defectors were known as the “apostates”.

So I can’t see how apostasia means the physical departure of the church to heaven because to me Paul is saying the Parousia and our gathering and the day of the Lord will not come until first the apostasia, the defection from Christ and the appearance of the antichrist.

Interestingly FB Meyer whom the PWMI are proud to put up as one of their main founders held this same view in his bible commentary. I sent the particular portion of his commentary to .....and he wrote back saying I had misread it!

But Meyer had written concerning 2 Thes. 2 “First the man of sin then the Son of Man.”

Also concerning the Day of the Lord, Isaiah, Joel and Jesus agree certain events must take place before it comes:
Isaiah:
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joel: Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

(Tie the above verses in with Revelation 14:14-16 and Rev. 19.)

Jesus: Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Interestingly all 6 seals of Revelation correspond to the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24
(see attached page).

So after looking at these scriptures I believe the day of the Lord begins after the tribulation just as the Lord Jesus said. It is only then in Rev.6:17 do men cry the day of God’s wrath IS come. Indicating it had not fallen until this moment.

Malachi also says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord.
If the day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week that cannot happen until Elijah appears and events take place in the sun and moon and stars.

But Jesus says they do not happen until after the tribulation and it is only then He mentions a rapture.
Joel says they happen at the same time as the battle of Armageddon and the earth is reaped at the same time as is show in Rev. 14.
So I believe the church is raptured around the time of the start of the day of the Lord after the tribulation.

Interestingly the bride only makes her appearance and is given white robes to wear in Revelation 19 immediately before Armageddon which ties in with Rev. 14, Isaiah 13 and Joel 3’s valley of Jehoshaphat.

Surely the bride hasn’t been sitting around for 7 years or more following a pre tribulation rapture waiting to get dressed?

This is immediately before Armageddon, around the time when the cosmic signs take place, just before the day of the Lord. Exactly as the Lord Jesus stated in Matt 24 etc.

It is plain to me this is a post tribulation rapture. If I am wrong someone please show me.

I am not perfect at all, ask Maria, but looking at scripture and taking it at face value there is not one ounce of a scripture for a pre trib rapture that is as plain as these for a post trib one.
It just is not there.

Anyway enough of a rant let’s move on…..are we still friends? I hope so.

The Philadelphian church.

Revelation 3:10:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Firstly: There is no scriptural warrant for saying the 7 churches are 7 church ages.
That is inferred and seems to be “adding to the words of the book” something strictly forbidden.

If however we grant they are pictures of 7 church ages and the Philadelphian church age is raptured, that still leaves one more church age, the Laodicean, which means the church is still on earth after the rapture!
But one still has to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages.

The Laodiceans are still the Lord’s people because he pleads with them to change their ways (v 18) and says he loves them (v 19) and promises rewards to the overcomers (v 21).
If one follows the “7 ages” idea this also knocks imminence on the head because if the church has always expected the Lord at any moment they were wasting their time because the 7 ages had to be fulfilled. These “ages” could not be fulfilled if the church had (imminently) been raptured at any time before their completion.

Also when we come to Rev 3:10:
Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Surely the words “keep from” Tereo ek in Greek, must have the same meaning for all readers whether Philadelphia in the first century or the global church of the last days.

So when was the church of Philadelphia raptured?

I know it sounds like a stupid, dumb question but if these words do not mean the same for all readers then how do we establish what they mean for anyone?

Answer: by our own interpretation of the verse which, in the end, can mean whatever we want it to mean.

I notice you gave me a whole wealth of scriptures for this verse, Revelation 3:10

One verse I particularly noticed was John 17 when the Lord prays for His followers:
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them (tereo ek) from the evil.

The Lord Jesus prays using the same words “keep from” Tereo ek that He uses in Revelation 3:10. But it is obvious He is not praying for them to be raptured, in fact he actually says so.

It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in John
It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in Revelation.
It’s the same apostle writing in both books.
It’s the same Greek words he uses in John 17:15 and in Revelation 3:10.
But when reading John 17:15 we are asked to believe these words mean exactly the opposite to the same words he writes in Revelation3:10!

Surely not.

Or how about Jeremiah and Jacob’s trouble?

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

You’ve probably guessed “out of” in the Greek Septuagint of Jer. 30:7 is the same as Revelation 3:10 and John 17:15, Tereo ek.

So does this mean the Jews will be raptured before the time of Jacob’s trouble?

Of course not. It means those faithful will go through and not give way to temptation, to give up; they will endure it.

Why then should the same Greek phrase in Jeremiah 30:7 and John 17:15 mean the same but then mean something totally different when read in Revelation 3:10?

And to add to the confusion, we are expected to believe this means one thing for the church of Philadelphia (they were not raptured) but another for the end time church (they will be)?

So from a simple reading I can only see a protection from temptation to fall during the troubles not a snatching out before they begin.

Interestingly the Philadelphian church was protected from falling during the persecution by the emperor Trajan soon after this letter was written and it still exists today.

But the point is the Philadelphian church remained on the planet.

I notice also you state that post tribbers believe John 17:15 means they shall be kept from physical harm and thus the saints in the tribulation will be also protected in the same way.

I don’t know what post trib. book you read, ....., because all the ones I have read on the subject (I concede I have certainly not read them all) say the opposite.

The verse means to be kept from falling, giving way under intense pressure and temptation not physical protection.

If the Lord Jesus’ prayer in John 17 was for the physical protection of the apostles, the prayer failed miserably. They were stoned, whipped, beaten, imprisoned, beheaded, crucified upside down and so on.

All died terrible deaths apart from John.
But they kept faithful and did not give way to the temptation to throw in the towel.
So the Lord’s prayer was fulfilled. They were kept from the evil one in that they were upheld from falling to temptation to give up.

Those faithful who go through the tribulation will likewise be kept from giving way to the temptation to follow the antichrist and avoid persecution.
As with the early church many will defect and betray their fellow believers during the tribulation.

But………. pre-tribbers still have to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages or the argument that Rev 3:10 is a rapture verse for the end time church falls at the first hurdle.

My feeling, for what it is worth as a layman, is that the letters were foremost to the 7 churches and are a message to us also because we find every kind of believer in the global church that we find in the 7 churches, and that is as far as I think we can take the idea.

Luke 21:34-36 “Pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the son of Man.”
To take these verses from the same Olivet discourse we find in Matthew and Mark where Jesus continually says to his disciples “when you see…” and then to use them as a proof text for a pre trib rapture just doesn’t seem to fit right. Why warn your disciples about the end times saying to them “when you see” and then say “Now pray that you will be raptured before any of this happens?”

Besides “escape” in the Greek is “ekpheugo” which simply means to “escape out of the midst of.” Also the immediate verses before this shows Jesus was speaking to those who would live in the time of the antichrist.

Again comparing scripture with scripture we find this fits exactly with Revelation 7 which follows the sealing of the 144,000 Jews and before that the start of the day of the Lord in chapter 6.
In Rev 6 the seals take us through most of the 7 years to the opening of the 6th seal and the cosmic signs at the end of the tribulation (Matt 24: 29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28).
Following this, in Revelation 7, we see the sealing of the 144,000 Jews (nowhere does it say they are evangelists) then we see a great crowd appear in heaven who are dressed in white and who have come “out of” great tribulation.

Rev 19 repeats the above. After Babylon is destroyed, chapter 18, a great crowd appears in heaven and dress in white. This is the bride. Then she follows Christ down to Armageddon.
Link this also with Rev. 14 :8 Babylon is fallen; the earth is reaped (rapture) verse 14,16; The angels gather antichrist and his armies to Armageddon verses 18-20;
see also chapter 16: Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

If there is a pre trib rapture it seems odd for the Lord to issue a warning to believers “I am coming as a thief” a term used for a pre trib rapture, and a command to watch, right here before Armageddon. I do not agree the “hour of trial” is the wrath of God. It is an hour of trial, testing, temptation the same testing the early church and the church throughout history have endured. But this time it will be more severe, more violent, more widespread.

As you said to “keep from” is to be unpolluted from the world. From giving in to temptation. We can’t do as you have, and put that on a par with “famines, earthquakes, wars, floods etc.”
Not one of the scriptures you gave re; “kept from”, “keep from” suggested anything like that.
The church has always experienced temptations but she has never been lifted out of the planet to avoid it. Why now? But she will be removed before the day of the Lord.

You agreed with me that the seals in Revelation 5 correspond to Matt 24. Both of which conclude with the day of the Lord and the cosmic signs given by Isaiah, Joel and Jesus.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil,
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice, this is at the end of the tribulation and it is only now they cry out “the great day of his wrath Is come.” Judgment is about to fall now not 7 years earlier.
Noah and Lot left the same day the judgment fell.
We leave just before the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation.

Finally we seem to have come around to the end of your letter and to the fact that the crowd comes out of great tribulation. Rev 7: 13, 14. Actually although you write “Having escaped from..” it doesn’t say that. It says “come out of.”

Surely I cannot come out of something I have not been in, can I? If I come out of the bath (a rare happening, I know) I haven’t avoided being in it have I?

You write it is “a motion of one place to another”. Yes out of the tribulation to the clouds and even if we use the word you used, “escape”, the Greek word in Luke for escape means out from the midst of. Not before; not avoiding the object.

At this moment I am sure the rapture is post tribulational because Jesus said so.
I know that sounds cocky which I most certainly hope I am not. I must simply trust what the word says, as must we all.

But sadly we seem to be reading different books.

It’s a mystery to me why you can’t see the same as me. And I am sure you are puzzled as to why I am unable to grasp your point of view.

But if “keep from” means to endure and stand against temptation
If escape means from the midst of,
If the reaping in Joel and Revelation is just prior to Armageddon,
If the crowd / bride appears in heaven just before Armageddon in Rev 7, and 19,
If Paul says we go around the time of the day of the Lord,
If Jesus puts the cosmic events preceding the day of the Lord after the tribulation,
If Jesus says he will collect us after the tribulation when the cosmic events occur……

I cannot go with my dear friends who see otherwise when scripture says not one word about a rapture, reaping, gathering or crowd suddenly appearing in heaven before the tribulation but instead consistently places these events following the tribulation as the day of the Lord commences.

My pastor is pre-trib, My church is pre-trib, 99.9% of the places I preach in are pre-trib. And I love them all.

Please forgive me if I am blind. I cannot see a pre trib rapture and I wish I could.

In Him.

Your friend and brother.

PRE-TRIBULATION --POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DEBATE LIVE ON GENESIS TV THIS TUESDAY

2009-07-19T16:16:00.000-07:00

PRE-TRIBULATION--POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DEBATE LIVE ON GENESIS TV THIS TUESDAY

Hi friends,This Tuesday evening on Genesis tv LIVE@NINE ( SKY 592) ( http://www.revelationtv.com/watchgen.php) I shall be debating Dr. Richard Kent on the timing of the Rapture.

There will be opportunity to phone in or e-mail with your comments or questions.Please pray the whole debate will be conducted in a spirit of brotherly love.

God bless you in Messiah.

WHEN DID JESUS SAY THE RAPTURE WOULD TAKE PLACE?

2009-05-18T13:07:00.000-07:00

WHEN DID JESUS SAY THE RAPTURE WOULD TAKE PLACE?
by Steve Jackson

WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE TAKE PLACE?

In answering this question, many Christians will give a typical response of quoting Mt. 24:36 - "But of that day and hour no one knows..." to indicate that we can not know the day or hour of the Rapture. However, they stop there and do not read the next verse where Jesus says, " But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Here He makes it clear that He is speaking of the timing of His Return, which still in the context of verses 29 and 30, is "after the tribulation", when all the world will see Him...an event at the end of the 7 year "week" of Daniel's prophecy....not at the start of the 7 years!!

So, the verse "...of that day and hour no one knows..." does not necessarily refer to the Rapture....unless it is at the end of the 7 years.

Perhaps, because of a mistaken idea on the timing of the rapture, many Christians are not even aware that Jesus Himself did tell us in other places when the Rapture would take place...in fact, the very day of the Rapture, and these other scriptures do not conflict with Mt. 24:36 above.

In fact He told us 4 times exactly which day it would be! So, lets take a look at what else Jesus said so that we can see how this is possible and just what He did say that pertains to the Rapture.

But before we look at what day Jesus said the Rapture would occur, "Rapture" must be defined.
Some Christians say the word "rapture" is not in the scriptures. Well, it depends on what scriptures you're talking about!

The Latin Vulgate Bible is the Latin translation of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts by Jerome completed around 405 A.D., and it does have that word in the section of scripture we are going to look at right now.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you do not sorrow, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so those also who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so we shall ever be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

The portion highlighted above in this color in the Latin Vulgate reads: "deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus". The Latin word for "shall be caught up" is "rapiemur".

The Latin dictionary says that root for the Latin word "rapiemur" is "rapio" which it says means "to seize , snatch, tear away; to hurry along a person or thing". There you have it.

"Rapture" is a scriptural word...just in a different language (translation)!

Even though it is a scriptural word, because of the association of the word "rapture" with levitation in Hinduistic, Persian, and occultic literature and also in spiritualist circles in the United States and Britain in the 19th and 20th centuries, some Christians do not want to use this term to describe the wonderful event described in these verses. Since the strength of the event is so well described by this choice of the Greek word by the Holy Spirit, it is obvious that some human beings (i.e. Christians saved at this time - both physically living and dead) will get new resurrection bodies and be caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus forever. This event is what the Holy Spirit, Paul and many Christians refer to as the "catching away, seizing or snatching away" of Christians and some other Christians refer to as the Rapture.

It may be time for Christians to claim back this word for this blessed event.

Now the root Greek word for "shall be caught up" is "harpazo" and means "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" which is pretty much the same meaning as "rapiemur"...which is probably why Jerome translated that way!

So, it really does not matter if a person doesn't like the word "rapture", the meaning of either the Latin or Greek word, "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" describes the essence and nature of the event in this scripture passage very, very well. Paul said he got this from the Lord Jesus "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" (verse 15) - maybe he saw it in a vision - and "I would not have you to be ignorant, brothers" (verse13), and he is educating us to TRUTH and doesn't want us to be ignorant of what the Lord Jesus says! If believers are going to be "seized, caught up, carried off by force, snatched away" to meet the Lord "IN THE CLOUDS...IN THE AIR", that ought to be good enough for us too!

With that in mind, take a look at all the places in the New Testament where "harpazo" is used and see how it is used:
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take <726> it by force <726>.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away <726> that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take <726> him by force <726>, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth <726> them, and scattereth the sheep. [How does a wolf get a sheep? "Harpazo" meaning "to seize, catch up, carry off by force, snatch out or away" fits here pretty good....wouldn't you say? Well, it's the same way Christians will be "caught away to meet the Lord in the air"!]
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall <726> any man pluck <726> them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck <726> them out of my Father's hand.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away <726> Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. [Note earlier in this section that the angel told Philip to catch up and intercept this man traveling by chariot from Jerusalem to Gaza on a desert route. Take a look of a map of Israel to understand the significance of his being "caught away". Now if Philip was "caught away" from the closest part of that route to Azotus, he would have been "caught away " 10 miles minimum. If it was not at the closest point, it would have been more than 10 miles. How would you like to travel that way with no chariot or car? Well, that is how Christians, who are alive when Jesus comes, will be caught up to Him.]
Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take <726> him by force <726> from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up <726> to the third heaven...4 How that he was caught up <726> into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. [It is believed by most Bible scholars that Paul was speaking humbly about himself being "caught up" because in verses 1-8 he says he does not want to glory in the amount of visions and revelations God gave him.]
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up <726> together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling <726> them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child (i.e. Jesus) as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child (i.e. Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child (i.e. Jesus) was caught up <726> (i.e. his ascension to heaven 40 days after his resurrection) unto God, and to his throne.

Note that "harpazo" always means to catch, seize, pluck, or take something by force or power. It does not talk of some vague, weak action, but a strong, powerful, violent removal of something. Most of the verses deal with people changing location supernaturally...going from one place on earth to another place on earth, or going to the third heaven, or paradise, or to the throne of God.

Why would being caught up to the clouds in the air in 1 Thes. 4:17 be any different? Well, it isn't!

This event is equated again by both Paul and the Holy Spirit to be one and the same as the Resurrection of 1 Cor. 15:35, 51-52. This being the case, then Jesus had very pointed statements as to when these 2 events would take place and at this point, we can now take a look at the 4 times Jesus told us what day would be the day of the Resurrection or the "snatching away"

You will be amazed at the four times in the gospels that Jesus told us when the Resurrection would take place because you have probably read them many times and never really noticed a phrase of three particular words repeated and grasped their significance. Have you ever heard or read them before? Here are those 4 passages:

1) "And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose none, but should raise him up again at the last day." (John 6:39)

Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has given to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!

2) "And this is the will of him who sent me…that every one who sees the Son and believes on Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day". (John 6:40)

Dear Reader, are you one that has believed on the Son? If so, Jesus said He would give you eternal life and raise you up on the last day!

3) "No man can come to Me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

Dear Reader, are you one that the Father has drawn to Jesus? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!

4) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:54)

Dear Reader, are you one that has eaten His flesh and drank His blood and has eternal life? If so, Jesus said He would raise you up on the last day!

Jesus tells us 4 times, "…I will raise him up at the last day", but precedes that statement by telling us who he will raise, and most Christians would have to say those 4 preceding descriptions include them! So, Christians would be raised on the Last Day.

Do they include you? If so, you will be raised on the last day too!

When is the Last Day? That is a good question and deserves an honest answer.

In Mt. 24:3 "...the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, 'When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

(Note on the word "age" in the verse just quoted: The King James Version translates the Greek word "aeon" as "world" whereas Greek lexicons translates it "age", meaning "an unbroken age, perpetuity of time". In fact "aeon" transliterates directly into English as "aeon" or "eon" (look both words up in your English dictionary) from which we have a popular expression…"I haven't seen him for eons (of time)!"

They are saying in effect, "I haven't seen him for ages." The world will not end when Jesus comes back; the age will. "Age" is the correct translation for "aeon".)

Then Jesus gives his reply starting in the next verse. Note the high lighted parts:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus concludes the answer in verses 29-31 with his coming at the end of the age:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus concludes his answer to "when is the end of the age" by giving the signs of his Second Coming to planet Earth.

This is the END OF THE AGE!

Other time expressions occur in the Bible like "last time, last times, latter day, latter days, last days" (you will recall Acts 2:17 "in the last days, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh...") and here under discussion, "last day".

So, the Last Day is the last day of the "latter days" or of the "last days" or of the Age. What could be simpler?

Obviously, "the last day" is a 24 hour day. Paul says the Resurrection (of Christians) will be in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52) and how long does that take? It certainly can't occupy more than one day because it is one split second!

Incidentally, if there were two phases of one Resurrection separated by 7 years, as some people teach, wouldn't there have to be TWO "twinklings of an eye"? Paul would have had to been mistaken in telling us that there was only ONE!

There are still more "at the last day" scriptures we haven't looked at yet, but when have you ever heard an End Time expositor consider what Jesus had to say in these scriptures about when he says the Resurrection will take place?

Let's take a look at another such scripture.

It is John 11:24 where Martha, even with limited teaching from Jesus, understood the simple truth of when Jesus would "raise ALL believers".

"Martha says to Him, 'I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'"

How much better should we know it? So we may not know the particular "day or hour" of the Resurrection on the calendar, but we can know that it is on the "last day" of the Age!

Now since all Christians will be resurrected on the Last Day, then this event is described in different ways in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and Matthew 24:29-31.

Many Christians have been taught that Mt. 24 is for the Jew after Christians have been "snatched out" to be with the Lord (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

However, as it can now be understood that Christians will be raised or changed on the Last Day of the Age, it can be seen that Mt. 24 is really for all believers and applies to Christians (Jew or Gentile) on Earth during that time. Thus, Mt. 24 is far more relevant than what so many have realized. Let's take a look and see what Jesus has to say to us.

Open your Bible to Mt. 24 and take a closer look at the end time events that Jesus gives and notice that they are basically in chronological order as indicated by a liberal supply of time-order indicators like "then" in verses 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 21, 23, 30, 40,

"not yet" in verse 6,

"therefore when" in verse 15, and

"immediately after" in verse 29.

These time-ordering indicators makes it easy to see the chain of events that will happen. They are of the utmost importance in a proper end-time sequence to determine the timing of the rapture.

This whole discourse of Jesus in Mt. 24 was preceded by the disciples asking 3 questions in verse 3: When will these things happen? What will be the sign of your coming? What will be the sign of the end of the age?

Jesus answers them in verses 4 through 31. Read along in your Bible. Here is the order of events:
1) verses 4-8:
Jesus says this period is the "beginning of sorrows" (verse 8) before the tribulation of verse 9 for "the end is not yet" (verse 6). It is the time of escalating political unrest, famines, disease, and geological disturbance, with rising deceptive messianic claims.

2) verses 9-14:
This period is the "sorrows" that Jesus alluded to in verse 8. It is the period of "tribulation" (verse 9), "offenses" growing into "hatred", persecution, and "betrayal" where "lawlessness abounds and love grows cold" making many people ripe for "false prophets that will mislead".

Notice the word "then" being used 4 times here ordering the sequence of events. Notice further that Jesus says that this period ends at his coming and that the end won't occur until the gospel has been preached in all the world and that those "who endure to the end will be saved" (i.e. delivered in the broad sense of the Greek word "sozo").

3) verses 15-28:
This period is the "great tribulation" and starts in verse 15 when Jesus says, "Therefore when [note the time-order indicators] you see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...".

Jesus is referring to what Daniel said, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Dan. 9:27), and "shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place there the abomination that makes desolate." (Dan. 11:31), and "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up..." (Dan.12:11).

Jesus said that this period of "great tribulation" starts when the Abomination of Desolation appears...which Daniel says takes place in the "middle of the (70th) week". Jesus tells us further that this period goes to the end of the age when He returns.

Incidentally, since Daniel got all this information that was quoted above from the angel, Gabriel, and other angels who obviously got it from God, and Jesus referred to it as being correct, the above chronology and time table is beyond controversy.

Now the middle of the "week" (Hebrew word meaning "seven") of years is 3 1/2 years from the end of the week. This 3 1/2 years is referred to in other portions of the books of Daniel and Revelation as "time, times and half a time", "42 months", or "1260 days". They are one and the same period of time...just different ways of saying it (calculate it out yourself).

For anyone looking for proof of this, Rev. 12:6 and 12:14 equate the "1260 days" and "time, times, and half a time", respectively, and Rev. 11: 2 and 11:3 equate the "42 months" and the "1260 days", respectively.

This time will be so bad that Jesus warns them that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place" of the temple (see also Thes. 2:4), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains".

He tells them not even to go back home and get some clothes, but to drop everything and head for the hills! Maybe that's where the expression came from, "Head for the hills!" He further warns them that those who are pregnant, those who are nursing babies, and indeed, those who are practicing Jews and are limited by the distance they can travel on the Sabbath will suffer additional hardships, not to forget the increased misery all would have to suffer if this event occurs in the winter time.

Note that Jesus' statements, "...standing in the holy place...those in Judea...Sabbath..." indicate local events in Jerusalem, Judea and much of Israel .

It is not that the rest of the world will be untouched by end time events, but that Jesus is relating them to the land of Israel and the Jews who live there because that is where the worst of it will center. The rest of the world will hear about this through the mass media, but for those there in Israel, it will be a worse time than for the rest of the world. That's why Jesus says at this point that it is time to head for the hills!

The reason that Jesus gives these extreme commands to flee in the light of the great suffering people will have to endure is because, "For then [note again the time-order indicators] there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved [i.e. delivered]; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (verses 21, 22).

When Jesus says there never was or will be a time with more tribulation than this, you had better be sure He knows what He is talking about. That is why He is warning us.

Then in verses 23-28, He goes on with another time-order indicator, "Then, if anyone..." further warns them of the great deception that they are ripe for due to their great vulnerability to a whole flurry of false christs and prophets saying that the Christ has already come in secret. He says ignore them because when He, the real Christ comes, it will be as obvious as lightning starting at one end of the sky and streaking and flashing across to the opposite side and that just as the birds are drawn to a carcass, so will the saved be gathered together to him!

Yes, it will be a terrible time..., but it will also be a glorious time for God will show much grace and protection upon His children and many Christians will lead many people to the Lord.

"After these things I looked, and saw a great multitude that no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb'. And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might be onto our God forever and ever. Amen!' Then, one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"...he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them" (Rev. 7:9-15).

Yes, this is not a time for Christians to fear, but to prepare for the greatest time and serve God with their whole heart, mind and soul.

If you believe that God did raise Jesus Christ from the dead, but have not yet given your life and will over to God through Jesus Christ, why not make Jesus your Lord, that is master, of your life and confess Him from the heart as your Lord and commit yourself to Him, so that He might save you to Himself and make a new creation out of you (see Romans 10:9-10 and 2 Cor. 5:17).

Then you have no need to fear anything that is coming in the future, for you will have put your life into His hands!

4) verses 29-31:
This period is the "coming of the Son of Man", the Rapture:

"Immediately after [note the time-order indicator again] the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then [another time-order indicator] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Mt. 24:29-31)

This period starts "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and concludes with the Resurrection of dead Christians, the changing of living Christians to immortality and catching them all away to be with the Lord on the Last Day. Speaking of the events in the last paragraph, Jesus says in Lk. 21:28, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is very near!"

Why? Because it's the rapture, and Jesus is coming to receive us to Himself! Why "look up and lift your heads"? Because He is coming from "up"..."coming in the clouds of glory"...and "we shall be caught up...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"! The events that happen at this point may be the most stupendous, the most incredible, the most fantastic events that any human being will have ever seen. They start with the heavenly signs that the prophets of old (Isa. 13:10, Ezek. 32:7, Joel) have prophesied over thousands of years ago. The Church was birthed on Peter's proclamation that the Pentecostal pouring out of God's Holy Spirit was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (see Acts 2:16-21 and Joel 2:28-32) and that God "would show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood, fire, and smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and notable Day of the Lord shall come." This is repeated in Rev. 6:12 as the Sixth Seal. What an awesome, fantastic event. No one will miss this when it happens. This will not be "done in a corner". You would have to be blind in one eye and not be able to see out of the other to miss this!

If this was not enough, "then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

This is going to be a "two for one special" like none before. On the heels of the first dramatic eye opener will be the Lord's personal appearance and revelation and "Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye will see him...and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev. 1:7).

Perhaps "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" will be a vision of "they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven..." since when he comes back in his physical resurrection body, he can be only in one place physically at a time and obviously that will be in the sky over Jerusalem, and the rest of the world will need a sign and comprehension that something did take place - namely, his return to planet earth! That may be why "all the tribes will mourn" and "every eye will see him".

Now if even this wasn't enough, there's more yet! "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat. 24:31).

This will be 1 Thes. 4:15-17 coming alive! No more of just words on a page. The Incredible will have taken place..."the Lord, himself, shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead shall rise first. Then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

The archangel and angels will be involved in this at the Lord's command collecting the saints from the "four corners of heaven" " together to meet the Lord to be with him forever."

That trumpet is the Seventh Trumpet of Rev. 11:15-19 which signals the end of the Age and its history.

Some Christians (who are pre-tribulationists) believe the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor. 15:52 is the first "last trumpet" and the Seventh Trumpet will come 7 years later and is the second "last trumpet".

However, there are no two "last trumpets"; there is only one...just as there are not two raptures at the start and end of Daniel's Seventieth Week...just one...and it will be on the Last Day of the Age.

Thank God Jesus told us when the rapture would take place...not only four places and times in John's gospel but also in Matthew 24. We may not be able to say right now what the date is, but we do know it will be "after the tribulation of those days", and we can know the chronology and the number of days between certain events so that we can know when Jesus will come for us.

The closer we get to it, the more obvious will be those things in prophecy which are hard to foresee right now. Thank God Jesus told us the whole scenario that we can understand how simple and straight forward it really will be. These are exciting times to be living in. We could be very close to his coming and to being caught up to be with him forever!

"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'" (1 Cor.15:51-55)

THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON: WILL EVERYONE ON EARTH DIE?

2009-05-10T08:28:00.000-07:00

Hi folks,

still going through Imm's comments and attempting to answer as best as I can.
Please feel free to post a comment below.

Expected Imminently said...

Part 2.

One more try to help you understand another reason why Postrib cannot be Scripturally correct.

Still in Revelation 19.

Postribulation Scenario.

1) At the 2nd Coming, survivors of The Tribulation who have accepted Jesus as Messiah, will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Their mortal bodies will become immortal. The Rapture in 1Corinthians 15:52.

2) Rev.19:15 and 21. At Christ’s 2nd Coming, the sword which comes from Christ’s mouth will kill ALL unbelievers.

3a) So ALL believers are Raptured from the earth into their eternal bodies. They will not be ‘marrying’ to beget children. They will be ‘as the angels’.

3b) And ALL unbelievers are DEAD!

Bob:

Hmmm. Let’s again do what you accuse me of NOT doing; read it all in context:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Bob Continuing:

Remember, friends this is a localised battle on the plain of Armageddon stretching down to Jerusalem itself. The bible says so!

Let’s compare scripture with scripture so as not to take something out of context:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Bob again:

So it would appear from this that the armies are destroyed not the entire human race.
Concerning your belief that the entire human race on earth is destroyed it is always dangerous to cite just one passage without balancing it out with others. Scripture interprets and expands scripture.

Let’s look at some scriptures below re; your comments and pre-tribulation rapture and post-tribulation rapture .........

The verse you cited 19:15:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Bob: Answer me please, Imm, how can he rule them with a rod of iron if they are all dead?

Also please note the Lord’s words in Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Why would the Lord warn us he is coming as a thief at this time in history (Armageddon) when according to you he is supposed to have come 7 years earlier??

Imm:

4)That means there will be NO believers left to reproduce and repopulate the millennium kingdom.

Bob:

Again I ask let us call on scripture to interpret scripture.
Concerning the Lord’s return Zechariah states:

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Bob again:

This is the Day of the Lord which pre-tribbers claim runs through the entire 7 years but we are plainly told it takes place here at the return of the Lord to earth..I recommend folks read the entire chapter..or maybe chapters 12,13,14 together so you can see when this all takes place.

But let’s continue:

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left (Bob’s emphasis) of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Bob:

So there are people who survive and the Lord rules them with a rod of iron and he will punish the ones who refuse to worship.
Does that sound like the scripture is talking about believers??
No we are reading about survivors those who are left after the Lord returns. These are the ones who the Lord rules with a rod of iron. It is their descendants who finally rebel in Revelation 20...

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Bob again:

By the way, strange how the verses above still do not mention the church but “saints” who pre-tribbers say are those people converted in the tribulation.
So after a thousand year we still cannot see the “church”.
Can we?
Unless the pre-trib rapture theory is wrong and the saints mentioned throughout Revelation are the church.

That would mean the “saints” mentioned here in verse 9 are the church.
That makes so much more sense than going all through the New Testament calling the church “saints” until we get to Revelation and then the saints are no longer the church but are magically tribulation converts.

Pre-tribbers are the most amazing contortionists.

Imm:

It is impossible for the Postribulation theory to fit Scripture.

Bob:

Really? I like you Imm and your children’s book has blessed many. But that’s as far as I travel with you. It is the pre-tribulation theory that does not fit scripture but has to be squeezed into a hole it doesn’t fit at all. Post trib is scriptural and no matter how many “pictures” and “types” are produced to support the pre-tribulation theory, it is scripture weighed against scripture and the statements of the Lord Jesus himself that have the final say in the matter.

SOME ANSWERS IN CONTEXT

2009-05-08T13:34:00.000-07:00

Hi friends,

I have been accused of taking scripture out of context regarding the evidence for a post-tribulation rapture of the church. So I can do no better than to slowly go over Expected Imminently's (Imm) coments as best as I can.

We end with the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Imm. attempts to prove a pre-trib rapture.
I counter this and offer a link to an excellent teaching that runs for just under 4 minutes.

I do hope you can stay and read the entire study below.

For those who cannot here is the link to the short video teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w

I'll start with Imm's most recent posts then move on.

Imm.

Concerning Matt.24 your posts have claimed your understanding comes from ‘the plain meaning of Scripture’. I have already said that the postrib reading of the passage is anything but plain; the reason why is because it is being viewed with ‘hindsight’. Passing time revealed the reality of the Church, and this is the spin put upon this passage. You ‘suppose’, Jesus MUST have mentioned this to His ‘best friends’. Yet this supposition is not stated in the Scripture. It is conjecture.(eisegesis)

Bob:

Actually Imm. I got the feeling these were his close friends from reading scripture where the Lord at certain times spoke to, or took along with him, just these few friends:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John, his brother, and makes them go up with him into a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And he was changed in form before them; and his face was shining like the sun, and his clothing became white as light.

Mar 5:35 And while he was still talking, they came from the ruler of the Synagogue's house, saying, Your daughter is dead: why are you still troubling the Master?
Mar 5:36 But Jesus, giving no attention to their words, said to the ruler of the Synagogue, Have no fear, only have faith.
Mar 5:37 And he did not let anyone come with him, but Peter and James and John, the brother of James.

Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? there is not one stone here resting on another which will not be overturned.
Mar 13:3 And while he was seated on the Mountain of Olives opposite the Temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew said to him privately,
Mar 13:4 when these things will be, and what will be the sign of your coming?

Mar 14:32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he said to his disciples, Be seated here while I say a prayer.
Mar 14:33 And he took with him Peter and James and John, and grief and great trouble came on him.
Mar 14:34 And he said to them, My soul is very sad, even to death: be here a little time, and keep watch.

And during the Olivet discourse Jesus continually says to these four friends “When you see”. Indicting believers will be there to see the antichrist.

To assign this chapter to the Jews only is nonsense. These men just a few days later became the leaders in the church.

So because this discourse took place before Pentecost am I to ignore its relevance to me because it took place before the so called “birth” of the church?

Well then I should not take the Lord’s supper because he did this with Jews in a Jewish setting before Pentecost.

But we don’t do that do we.

Why? Because only Matthew 24 and the Olivet discourse makes us uncomfortable when faced with the fact that Jesus told his four close friends they could see the antichrist. They didn’t. But now in the last of the last days it is very possible we as followers of the Messiah, as they were, may see him.

Imm.

In order to be the perfect sacrifice for our sin, Jesus HAD to ‘lay aside’ His divinity. Human blood, was required; not the blood of animals, so God the Son, HAD to become ‘fully human’, the son of man, as The Word took on flesh. John 1:14.

Bob:

Imm any theologian will tell you Jesus was fully man and fully God. He was not God one day then next he became just a man.
God never changes therefore he took on flesh bust retained full deity. More on this below.

Imm:

I realise you know this, but you haven't applied it to Matt.24.........Taking all the above into full account, I want to look more closely at the much maligned Matt.24.

In vs.3. Jesus disciples asked ‘and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’ In His humanity Jesus plainly says that only the Father ‘knows’ the timing of the end of this present age. Matt.24:36. ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only’.

Bob:

I can understand where you are coming from Imm. But you accuse me of taking scripture out of context so let’s see just what Jesus was talking about here on Olivet when he said no man knows the day or the hour. Let’s do as you say and read it in context.....

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Bob..continuing:

What day and hour are we considering here? A pre-tribulation appearing or a post- tribulation appearing?

It’s a post Tribulation appearing. Read it for yourself several times “in context”.

Pre-tribbers are so fond of using this very verse “not knowing the day or hour” in support of an “any moment” pre-tribulation rapture. But that’s not what is being said here.....is it?

The Lord only mentions his coming “after the tribulation”. But that day and hour (his post tribulation rapture of the elect) no man knows.

Imm:

SERIOUSLY NOW!

1John4:1-3 “ - - By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist,- - - . 2John:7, supports this. This is a serious warning to those who suggest that Jesus is not 100% flesh, just as we are. He lay His God hood, while in the flesh. Certain suggestions made on this blog come into the category of ‘spirit of antichrist’, when denying Jesus did not know the answer to the disciples second question.

Bob:

I have never once suggested Jesus was not 100% human. But he was also 100% God in the flesh. Jesus chose as God not to know. The Father is above the Son and therefore as his authority is over the Son he chose not to reveal to Jesus in the flesh, the day or the hour.

The idea that Jesus divested himself of deity to become man is a well known heresy.

And you suggest some others may have the spirit of antichrist in the way they write???
Check out these men of God :

Robertson’s word pictures:

Php 2:7
The form of a servant (morphēn doulou). He took the characteristic attributes (morphēn as in Phi_2:6) of a slave. His humanity was as real as his deity.

Vincent’s word studies:

Made Himself of no reputation (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν).
Lit., emptied Himself. The general sense is that He divested Himself of that peculiar mode of existence which was proper and peculiar to Him as one with God. He laid aside the form of God. In so doing, He did not divest Himself of His divine nature. The change was a change of state: the form of a servant for the form of God. His personality continued the same. His self-emptying was not self-extinction, nor was the divine Being changed into a mere man. In His humanity He retained the consciousness of deity, and in His incarnate state carried out the mind which animated Him before His incarnation. He was not unable to assert equality with God. He was able not to assert it.

The Kenosis Controversy

A more subtle heresy regarding the divinity of Christ has to do with a false doctrine called Kenosis. The word Kenosis comes from the Greek word kenoo, which is translated to empty.

The Doctrine of Kenosis

The doctrine comes from a misunderstanding of Philippians 2:7. Here Paul describes how Jesus who was on equal standing with God, emptied himself as He came to earth. The question must be asked, what did Jesus empty himself of?

Contemporary Kenosis Theology

While this has been a long held belief, condemned as heresy as early as the 4th century, and revived with modern liberalism, there is a resurgence of this doctrine among evangelicals, especially in the charismatic community.

The thought process is that Jesus, although still God, emptied himself of his supernatural abilities. He was a man who was enabled to do miracles based upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Expected Imminently said...

Hello Bob

Definition of the Postribulation rapture means it occurs at the same time, or just after, the 2nd Coming at the end of the 7 years.

I am attempting, yet again, to try and explain a major difficulty with this theory.

Part 1. Revelation 19 reveals events of Christ’s return.

A) Vs 7. Tells us the marriage supper is near, and the bride has made herself ready!

B) Vs8. Her clothes are described as white linen, clean and bright. This linen is for the Bride only, because it is called ‘the righteousness of the saint’s”. (As a result of Christ’s blood sacrifice, it is not the clothing of angels).

C) Vs.9. The invitations have gone out, and the supper is near.

D) Vs.11. Heaven opens and Jesus rides out on His white horse.

E) Vs.14. The ‘armies’ that were with Him in heaven, ride out with Him. This ‘army’ is wearing ‘fine linen, white and clean’. ( Vs.8. Has already identified this clothing as belonging to the bride).

Bob:

Okay Imm. let’s do what you suggest so I am not accused of taking scripture out of context.

Let’s read the verses that come before and include some of your verses. We begin with the destruction of Babylon:

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Here you disagree with your pre-tribulation teachers. According to pre-tribulationism the marriage supper takes place during the 7 years of the final week of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy not at the end of it.

At last we agree.

The bride does not appear until just before the Messiah leaves Heaven for earth.

The scripture you quote above proves it.

So Babylon is destroyed just before we see the multitude in Heaven clothed in white immediately before the Lord rides out for the battle of Armageddon.

According to pre-tribulation teaching, which I heard for over 40 years, the church has been in Heaven for at least 7 years before this event.

They have been waiting 7 years to get clothed??

Imm:

It is clear from these few verses alone, that the Rapture MUST have occurred BEFORE the 2nd Coming.
Jesus is coming WITH His Bride, the Church, in their glorified bodies to catch the 2nd coming events.

Bob:

No my dear Imm. You have missed the whole point. The saints are seen and get dressed after the tribulation...not before!

Then they descend to Armageddon.

Watch this. I discovered this while praying about this post and after I had written most of the above apart.

The following link explains it perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiE1SxFz9_w

DVD LINK CORRECTED

2009-04-21T08:31:00.000-07:00

Just a quick line folks.
The link on the side bar for the dvd site where you can watch end time message clips has been corrected.

Sorry for any inconvenience...click there and enjoy. God bless.

MORE COMMENTS PLEASE

2009-04-20T04:11:00.000-07:00

Hi Friends,

Just a quick note. We welcome your comments anti or pro post tribulation rapture.

Only please try to keep them in the bonds of love. Come on all you out there. I have noticed a marked increase of hits on this particular site in the last few days so let's hear what you think.

Especially if you are versed in Hebrew or Greek.

Thanks and God bless you.

THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL PART 2

2009-04-18T09:12:00.000-07:00

Hi friends,

As promisd here is my brother in the Lord, Dusty with his second posting on the relationship between the Church and Israel.

I must say I am enjoying this so much as, amazingly, it is the very subject I have been deeply pondering the last few weeks....before Dusty sent me any idea of a subject!
Also I was preaching near Portsmouth the other day when "lo and behold" I was browsing the church books (as is my habit when visiting a church...Maria and I are book freaks) when I came upon a little volume with the title "Old Testament Saints Not Excluded From The Church In Glory". Even the pastor (a dispensationalist) was shocked to see the book in his church.

So as the Lord appears to be leading me through the writings of Dusty, this newly discovered booklet and of course the Bible, perhaps, dear reader, He is leading you also into a better understanding of His dealings with all mankind.

I could say more but will, for the moment, leave you in Dusty's hands and his next posting below.

-----------------------------------------------------------
POSTING 2

Hi Again :o)

Following on from my introductory post, I’d like to begin this analysis of the relationship between the Church and Israel by offering an explanation (admittedly rough and ready!) as to why I believe this blog, being devoted to the Rapture timing, needs first to settle the matter of that relationship.

Please forgive me if I’ve done a rudimentary job on this. I confess I didn’t spend much time on it. I wanted to concentrate on the ‘meat’ of the posting... If the Church and unsaved Israel are *completely* distinct entities, then this (along with certain Bible verses) strongly promotes the view that God’s focus throughout history is only ever on *one* People during any given ‘age’ or ‘dispensation’.

In turn, this ‘dispensationalist’ view implies a pre-trib Rapture since it is highly improbable that the Church will still be on Earth during “the time of JACOB'S Trouble” (Jer. 30:7), else God would have to be dealing with the Church and Israel (aka Jacob) *simultaneously* - an idea which throws a big spanner into the works of dispensationalism. If, however, there exists an intrinsic relationship between the Church and Israel, dispensationalism goes out of the window, and God can indeed deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously. This would instantly allow a different Rapture timing.

A DRAFT DESCRIPTION OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL

Before I begin this discussion, please be aware that I am not an expert in this field. Also, I wrote the following post in the space of less than 2 days. In other words, please don’t expect it to be faultless! For me, it is a ‘first stab’ at putting this topic down on paper in an organised and remotely complete way. I am very much hoping that other visitors to this blog will offer their constructive advice to help refine it.

INTRODUCTION

In light of Romans 9-11, it is obviously crazy to believe that the Church has replaced physical Israel. Since this blog is only relevant to premillennialists, I don’t intend to waste any time here on exposing the foolishness of replacement theology or ‘Covenantalism’. It would be similarly crazy for anyone to try to deny that God’s ordinances for man have changed at various times since He created Adam. (For instance, Noah was allowed to eat “every moving thing that liveth” (Gen. 9:3) whereas Adam had *not* been allowed to eat animals..)

However, just because the *physical* rules that God has commanded men to live by have changed, it doesn’t automatically follow that the underlying *spiritual* principles for man have changed.

SOME PROBLEMS WITH DISPENSATIONALISM

Before I develop the above point, I’d like to digress briefly to look at some key concerns/problems I have with dispensationalism.

(1) We lose a lot of our Bible!

The New Testament indicates, regarding the Old Testament Scripture, that “ALL [of it] ... is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim. 3:16-17). But dispensationalism tells us that, since the Old Testament was written for a different people in a different ‘age’ (or dispensation), it has almost no relevance for the Church today except as a warning of man’s continual failure to live up to God’s requirements.

As I understand it, the only fragments of the OT that are applicable to the Church are (a) any portions which reappear in the New Testament, and (b) some of the prophecies that pertain to the post-cross period. (I would hope that all OT Scriptures about God’s character and nature are also considered relevant today, but I’m far from sure about this.) Any thinking Christian would accept that the Levitical laws have been 'done away with' in Christ (2 Cor. 3:6-16). But if we pause for a moment we realise that dispensationalism also means we lose, among other wonderful OT passages, virtually the entire book of Proverbs, and the bulk of the book of Psalms too. It is a huge shock to think of the precious Scriptures that have suddenly been stripped from us :o(

It gets worse. Since the Lord Jesus said “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL”, and since the Church is supposedly totally distinct from Israel, we lose much of the gospels too! For example, and as others have said, “Contrary to the dispensationalists’ historic position that the Sermon on the Mount was designed for Israel alone, to define kingdom living, and “is law, not grace” [Scofield Reference Bible, p. 989], historic evangelical orthodoxy sees this great Sermon as applicable to the Church in the present era, applying the Beatitudes (Matt 5:2-12), calling us to be the salt of the earth (Matt 5:13), urging us to build our house on a rock (Matt 7:21-27), directing us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (Matt 6:9-13), and more.” Indeed, when carried to its logical conclusion, dispensationalism ends up by turning its back on much, indeed *most*, of the NEW Testament, let alone the Old. By contrast, my view is that the Old Testament is *not* there largely just as a very, very long proof that mankind is fallen. It contains many valuable things for the Church, including ‘examples’, ‘ensamples’, ‘figures’, ‘types’ and ‘shadows’ proclaiming eternal spiritual truths.

(2) We end up with heresies.

A second worry I have is that dispensationalism ultimately leads to some pretty unarguable heresies. For instance, “Dispensationalists teach that the kingdom was offered, rejected, (by the Jewish People) and postponed until a later age. We pose the question: What if the Jews had accepted Jesus’ offer to establish an earthly Davidic kingdom at His first advent? According to this teaching, people would then have been saved by legal obedience. In the light of this fact, dispensationalism would also teach ... that the cross would not have been necessary as a means of salvation”. When taken towards its *absolute* logical conclusion, dispensationalism leads to several other heresies, as any frank summary of their doctrines by any ‘hyper’ or ‘ultra’ or fully consistent dispensationalist would reveal.

Among other things, I gather it questions the Trinity, the eternal nature of Hell, and even the Bible as God’s Word. Ironically for a worldview supposed to be protecting Israel, it even denies that the creation of the Modern State of Israel is God-ordained (since this idea requires that God does deal with the Church and Israel simultaneously). See E.W.Bullinger’s more candid remarks for proof of my general assertion here.

(3) It results in serious confusion.

God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33), but consider the following quote: “Despite the dispensationalists’ popular presentation of seven distinct dispensations as necessary for properly understanding Scripture, scholars within dispensationalism admit that ‘one could have four, five, seven, or eight dispensations and be a consistent dispensationalist’ (Charles Ryrie)”. Consider too that, within the same camp, there are a large number of mutually-exclusive positions held regarding significant details of dispensationalism.

The Bible talks of the “SIMPLICITY that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:3; see also 1:12), yet this doesn’t seem to apply to dispensationalism :o(
Its proponents claim that it provides “a coherent and consistent interpretation” (John Walvoord) yet - as others have noted - “it ends up with one of the most ornate and complex systems in all of evangelical theology, with differing peoples, principles, plans, programs, and destinies”.

Dispensationalists have wisely rejected the notion that the Church has replaced physical Israel. They have rightly been repulsed by the idea. Unfortunately their revulsion has prompted them to go to the other extreme and to see Israel and the Church as not just different but *unrelated*....It is useful to liken the situation to a group of walkers who have reached a fork in the road. The path signposted ‘Replacementism’ is rightly rejected, and the opposite path is selected. This path initially seems very attractive and easy, but around the first corner it starts to get muddy and rocky and steadily more involved as it becomes ever harder to make its tenets agree with the Biblical data (e.g. the fact that the Apostles regularly seem to have forgotten to be dispensational!) The path starts to require all sorts of wriggling and contortions, and even some gymnastics to be performed, in order to make progress. This has the effect of causing different people to stop at different places along the path, depending on their level of determination. (If only they would retrace their steps to the start of the path, they would see that there was a *third* track waiting for them at the crossroads.)

The fact that dispensationalists end up at different points along the path means they have a multitude of different positions on the matter, leading to even more confusion within their circles.

(4) Dispensationalism hardly seems to have existed prior to 1830.

Another worry is that the dispensational view of the relationship between the Church and Israel is, as far as I can see, virtually *unknown* for the bulk of Church history. (I gather there is almost nothing extant about dispensationalism in any writings prior to that of the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza Y Díaz in 1790.) However, I’m not planning to make a major issue out of this, as I believe there are ‘bigger fish to fry’ so to speak :o)

WHO ARE GOD’S PEOPLE?

Let’s finally start to describe this “third path” I’ve been alluding to. I am calling it ‘Principlism’ on the basis that a key idea behind it is that God is unchanging (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8), and thus that His principles (as distinct from His physical commandments) do not change either. (Please Note: Just because I am not aware of this stance having an ‘official’ name does not mean it hasn’t been taught since the Apostles’ day.) It is sensible to start this thesis with the question, Who are God’s People? Are they different today from a previous dispensation?

Any true Christian will accept that the most pivotal event in man’s history is the cross. If there are such things as ‘dispensations’ in the sense dispensationalists believe, we can be confident that the cross points to a new dispensation. So let’s look at the situation before the cross, and then the situation after it. Prior to the cross, God had a people. Israel. But not every Israelite did that which was “right in the sight of the Lord”. If, prior to the cross, every Israelite had suddenly died in an earthquake, not all would have gone to be with the Lord. Thus, there was ‘saved’ Israel and ‘unsaved’ Israel.

If viewed from a spiritual perspective, we can consider them as two peoples (i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel), yet - while they are on the Earth - they are obviously joined in a very fundamental way. They are part of the same family. They are all part of a single nation. They are all part of the wider Israel. So, when it comes to God’s People, what happened *after* the cross? As previously, there still existed saved Jews and unsaved Jews, i.e. spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.

The big difference in the post-cross situation was that Gentiles could now be ‘grafted on’ to spiritual Israel *without* having to live as a physical Jew. But the result is still ‘Spiritual Israel’. And what we saw earlier is that ‘Spiritual Israel’ + ‘Earthly Israel’ = Israel. In other words, God’s People are *still* Israel, *still* comprising spiritual Israel and earthly Israel.
Just because God has temporarily put a veil over the eyes of earthly Israel doesn’t mean they are not still His People. Nor does it mean we are allowed to claim they are completely separate from us.

The above paragraph may well leave some folks reeling, so let me justify it further. It needs to be remembered that the new covenant was made with *Israel* not with Gentiles (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8)! We Gentiles are grafted onto a Jewish tree (Rom. 11:11-25) and, no matter how difficult it might be to accept for some of us who have been mistaught about the Jewish People, they are still God’s People. Since we too are God’s People, we should see them as related to us. And since we have been grafted onto a Jewish tree, we are spiritual Jews and (without adopting their non-NT practices, of course) we need to see the Jewish People, in a very real sense, as *our* People. Unlike Ruth (a Gentile) in *Old* Testament days, we post-cross believers don’t need to physically live among Jews in order to be seen by God as joined to Israel, but Ruth did show us the *heart* God calls us to have towards physical Israel. I have tried to think up a good analogy to help illustrate the situation. It seems that different analogies are useful depending on what aspect of the situation we are considering. Thus, when we are discussing the basic question ‘Has the Church replaced Israel, or are they utterly separate entities?’, one might use the analogy of a pair of conjoined (what we used to be allowed to call Siamese) twins to get across the point that there can be a third option.

To get across the fact that the Church and physical Israel are quite closely related to each other, but not desperately similar, I think we could profitably liken the situation to that between an expectant mother and her unborn baby son. To reflect the fact that both earthly and spiritual Israel comprise multiple humans, and to allow for the grafting in of Gentiles, a more advanced analogy might be that of a ‘Top Gun’ flying academy where the students represent earthly Israel and the staff represent spiritual Israel. All are one in the sense that they are all part of the same academy, but there is also a clear demarcation line. And, unlike in times past, the head of the academy (God) now accepts staff from outside the academy.. (Without meaning to promote a works-based salvation, I think this analogy can be taken a little farther still. In vaguely the same sort of way that earthly Israelites can be saved if they give their lives to God, so the academy’s students get to join the staff if they ‘make the grade’.)

I think another valuable analogy for the relationship between physical and spiritual Israel is simply the relationship between a human’s soul and spirit. They are separate, yet plainly linked in a fundamental manner. And they unavoidably remain that way until death. (By the way, please don’t push any of these analogies too far!)

However, I suspect the best analogy is the one God clearly gave us in His Word. That of an olive tree: “[I]f some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.” (Rom. 11:16-18)

BIBLE SUPPORT

Does the Bible clearly teach the idea I have described above? Apart from the fairly inescapable Romans 11 passage cited a moment ago, there is plenty of other support:

(1) Gentile Christians are described as spiritual children of Abraham, even though he supposedly lived in a totally different dispensation:-- Romans was surely written to the Church, yet Romans 4:16 describes Abraham as “the father of us ALL”.-- Likewise, Galatians is written to the Church, yet it says, “if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed” (3:29) and “they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (3:7).-- 1 Peter 3:6 says to Gentile women that they are “Abraham[’s] daughters ..., as long as [they] do well”.

(2) The NT says we have joined the “commonwealth of Israel”..I urge every visitor who doubts what I am saying to read Ephesians 2:11-22 where we Gentiles are told we were, in our unsaved state, “aliens from the commonwealth of Israel” but that we “are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God”. Do these verses really point to us being totally distinct from Israel? Do they not rather teach we are somewhat 'joined at the hip'? See especially vv 14-15.

(3) The Bible seems to have a significantly higher view of its (supposedly obsolete) sections than dispensationalists appear to have.-- Far from saying things like 'God’s commandments are designed to be totally redundant to future dispensations', the Bible says “*all* His commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever” (Psa. 111:7b-8a). (NOTE: This does *not* mean we are still supposed to physically *obey* all the OT commandments [I currently happen to believe that the 10 commandments do still apply - as long as we understand that Christ is our Sabbath now], but it does mean they have relevance for us - e.g. in that they provide physical pictures of spiritual truths about Christ or His cross or the future etc.)-- I defy any sincere dispensationalist to read Psalm 19 and Psalm 119 and then claim that the overwhelming majority of the Old Testament is thoroughly redundant now, especially in view of the fact that the OT was the only Bible the Church possessed in its earliest days (see 2 Tim. 3:14-15 for a very salutary statement on this issue).

(4) Time and again the plain meaning of the writings of the Apostles points *away* from dispensationalism and is in obvious accord with Principlism. Here are just a few of the many examples one could list:-- The epistle of James is clearly written to believers, yet it is *only* addressed to “the twelve tribes”. Either James made a mistake when he addressed his epistle like this (which is impossible), or Gentile believers are spiritually grafted onto the commonwealth of *Israel* (or “the twelve tribes”, as Israel is sometimes called).-- Romans says, regarding the OT record of Abraham’s faith being imputed to him for righteousness, “it was not written for his sake *alone* ... But for US ALSO...” (Rom. 4:22-24a).-- In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul writes “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn...” Paul patently informs the Church of an administrative principle on the basis of what the *Old* Testament says. (See also 1 Cor. 9:9-10.)--

For a particularly unavoidable passage showing that spiritual principles revealed in the Old Testament still apply for the Church, see 1 Cor. 10:1-11.

(5) Miscellaneous reasons to believe in Principlism include:-- Even after the cross, God still identifies Himself as “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob” (Acts 3:13; see also 7:32). It is perhaps a small point, but He never describes Himself as “the God of the Church”.-- Put simply, if we are in Christ, and if Christ is Jewish (which He is - see Rev. 5:5), then we are, in a *way*, Jewish. Again, if He is “King of the Jews”, and yet is *our* King, are we not spiritual Jews?-- Like 1980s fashion, Israel is ‘coming back’. God has promised to restore her. If the old dispensations are truly all obsolete, it seems a little odd that God hasn’t given up on Israel but has instead decided to ‘turn His attention back to her’ in the last days. It is even stranger to realise that Christ’s earthly reign is going to see the Jewish *feasts* reinstated (Zech. 14:16; 8:19). And it is positively bizarre to find that the Levitical priesthood will be restored in the Millennium (Isa. 66:20, Ezek. 44:11).

A WARNING

We Gentiles are part of spiritual Israel, but we are NOT part of *physical* Israel. If God made a promise to physical Israel which had not been completely fulfilled by the time the canon of Scripture was closed, we Gentiles cannot afford to spiritualise it or apply it to ourselves in any way until Christ returns. I cannot emphasize that point strongly enough. We must be careful never to steal promises made to physical Israel.

SUMMARY

We “wild” Gentile branches have been grafted on to a naturally Jewish tree, which has a Jewish root (Rom. 11:17-18). We have been adopted (not unlike Rahab, and other Gentiles in the Old Testament) into the wider Israel. Through Jesus Christ (an Israelite) we have become spiritual “sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7,29). We are now part of the “Commonwealth of Israel” (Eph. 2:12), part of the same sheepfold (John 10:16).

Although the physical rules for God’s People vary from time to time (and for good reasons, e.g. changes to our environment after the Flood), God Himself does not change – and nor does fallen mankind for that matter – so the human race is always subject to the same spiritual principles throughout the ages. Thus, while the physical rules and literal promises given to physical Israel do not apply to the Church, the *spiritual* principles that applied to God’s People before the cross still apply today.

I believe a straightforward, reverential, and balanced reading of the New Testament reveals that the apostles taught Principlism and used it whenever they interpreted the Hebrew Scriptures.

Huge thanks for your patience during this very long posting.

Looking forward to your feedback, especially if it is written in a godly way (Gal. 5:22-23) :o)Dusty

THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL

2009-04-16T08:54:00.001-07:00

Hi friends,

I have been quite busy lately. Hence no postings. Also I want to go over all the "against" coments to get my head clear on what is being said.

In the meantime Please read this very interesting and challenging post by my friend and brother in the Lord, Dusty.

I'll give you all a couple of days to read and digest this, invite your friends to read it and then I'll post his follow up.
,
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Hi All, I may be missing something here, but it seems to me that the Rapture timing is heavily bound up with one’s idea of the relationship between the Church and Israel.

(I plan to defend this statement in my next post..)

If I am correct in this conclusion, then I reckon it is unlikely that either side in this pre-trib v post-trib debate will convince the other side until this more fundamental question has been covered fully enough for sincere visitors to the blog to determine the correct stance on it. In case anyone is tempted to assume that the above paragraph must mean I believe the Church has *replaced* Israel, please be assured that I don’t. I believe there are *more* than two possibilities when it comes to the true relationship between the Church and Israel… I tend to liken this situation to that regarding the Godhead. On that topic there are two obvious, easily conceptualised possibilities - both of which enjoy multiple Bible verses indicating they are correct (i.e. that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same person, or instead that there are three Gods). But there is a third, rather less easily conceptualised, position which reconciles *all* the Biblical data on the topic, viz. that there is one God comprised of three Persons (in the same sort of way that a mortal man comprises a body, a soul and a spirit, each being distinct yet each being him).

As I say, when it comes to the relationship between the Church and Israel, I reckon a similar situation applies. There are two obvious, easily pictured possibilities - both of which can rightly claim to have multiple Bible verses indicating they are correct (i.e. that the Church has replaced Israel - I tend to call this ‘Covenantalism’ - and that the Church and Israel are totally separate - ‘Dispensationalism’)… But there is a third, rather less easily ‘visualized’, position which I believe elegantly and simply harmonises with *all* the Biblical data on the topic. Many passages from God’s Word can be brought to bear to justify that third position, but to keep this note to a reasonable length I will attempt to describe and account for said position in the next posting.

(Scripturally speaking, it is perhaps set out most clearly in Ephesians 2:11-20 & Romans 11:11-25.) In the meantime, please be reassured that the resultant stance (which I propose to call ‘Principlism’ because I am not aware of it having a recognised name) results in: a premillennial outlook; a need for the cross; and salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Many thanks for your time. God bless you, Dusty

WITH A HEAVY HEART

2009-03-05T12:18:00.000-08:00

I have struggled for weeks over the question of answering the comments below or not bothering.
I was on tv with bible teacher Alan Franklin recently. He is firmly pre-trib. Yet did we insult each other? Of course not. We are brothers in Christ.

But you guys seem intent on insults rather than brotherly debate.

I love you guys, but sadly all you seem to be able to do is call me "confused" and "Pseudo Scholarly" and so on. I don't mind I have thick skin.

The sad part is that this is all you are able to do. I provide scripture, you tear apart its plain meaning providing not a whit of scriptural evidence to back up what you say.

The first resurrection IS NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY EVENT you say.

Where do you get this teaching from scripture?

That is all I ask. Show me. To a pre-tribber there are

Two second comings (one for the saints and one seven years later with the saints),
Two Last trumps (one seven years before the other)
Two First resurrections (one seven years before the last)

Am I pseudo scholarly or confused because I can't find this teaching anywhere in THE BOOK and therefore reject it?

To desperately attempt to squeeze a pre-trib rapture system into these verses and others is wrong if they do not fit the context.

All I request is proof.

All I receive is insults.

Sad.

But I really do not mind.

Your lack of real hard evidence is helping me enormously.

By a simple reading of scripture a post trib rapture seems obvious. Matthew 24 says so.
Where does your bible say otherwise?

Jesus said He'd return at the end, after the trib.

The angels on Olivet said He'd return to the Mount of Olives.

The early church believed firmly Antichrist would attack the church.

Read the church fathers for yourselves. The men who were the disciples of the disciples.

For 1800 years this was the teaching of the church.

Yet 2,000 years after the diciples and the early church you dear guys come along and you know better and laugh and look down on poor "pseudo scholarly" Bob and the rest of us who take scripture at face value and do not try to wrest it into a preconceived belief system.

In fact your attitude drives me more to the feeling that all you are firing are blanks and you really have no ammo. at all.

You are all noise and mocking but at the end no proof.

My Lord Jesus told His best friends He would return after the tribulation. They were Jews. Yes but when wasn't He speaking to Jews?

He said let those in Judea flee. Of course He did. The events take place in Jerusalem when Antichrist sits in the Temple. Of course the Lord will warn those in the immediate area to get out.

And on that warning your whole argument hangs and pleads for us all to agree that this is simply a Jewish chapter. What utter nonsense.

"But they were Jews. They were not the church at that time."

So when did the Jewish friends of our Lord suddenly turn into the church?

A few weeks later when the Spirit came we are told.

So perhaps we should disregard the communion service as it is taken from the Jewish passover and these Jews were not yet the church when He sat at table with them.

"Oh no" you reply. "We only disregard Matt 24".

It is what that great scholar (and he really was one) SP Tregelles called "The Jewish waste paper basket". Because it doesn't fit in with our pre-conceived theology we discard it and give it to Israel.

I must stop and get something to eat. God bless you my friends. For to me you are friends.

May God guide myself and you into all truth. But let it be truth from scripture...not from our favourite christian teacher.

16 PROOFS FOR A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

2009-02-09T19:22:00.000-08:00

16 "PROOFS" FOR A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

Thanks Rick for the following 16 points regarding Pre-tribulation rapture proofs or evidences.

Let's take a look at them...and if I have a problem I'll be honest before the Lord and you guys and say so.

Rick's comments etc are in black. My replies are in red and my scriptures are in italics.

13 December 2008 19:32 Rick said...Bob -Could you also tackle these 16 points while you are at it. And I can show you in depth scriptural proof for #14 to support it.

Waiting to see your post trib answer to who is #14 though16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture by Kent Crockett

Proof #1:

Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Okay, let's read the story as it was intended to be read...without chapters. Now continue the events concerning Armageddon and the defeat of the 2 beasts and Satan.
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Verses 5 and 6 describe those who will reign with Christ 1,000 years. Among them are those who were martyred by the Antichrist. But note wht this event is: the FIRST resurrection.

These people tie in with the great number suddenly appearing in heaven in chapter 19. You cannot separate the two groups unless you want the rapture 7 years before this event when the church is supposedly resurrected.

That makes 2 First resurrections! One before the trbulation and one after at Armageddon.

So you say there is no mention of a resurrection in chapter 19. Okay but why conveniently forget to read chapter 20 which describes the first resurrection; the second being after the 1,000 years at the great white throne judgement for the lost?

Proof #2:

Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming.
Again, no mention of a resurrection.

On that kind of logic we must assume this is a different return than the one described in the passages above; Revelation 19,20 because there is no mention of angels or a trumpet as in the end of the Olivet discourse.

So there are two returns to fight for Israel??

No. These two descriptions are of the same event.

If you want every event to match exactly when described in more than one place in scripture you have a problem.

There must have been two visits to the Garderenes because one report tells of one demoniac and another speaks of two.

There must have been more than one resurrection of the Lord Jesus because there are several descriptions in each gospel and in many cases they differ.

The simple answer is that each description focuses on different things but they describe the same event.

Proof #3:

Two different pictures are painted.

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Recent discoveries show there were Jews who expected the Messiah to die and be resurrected. But the fact is the scriptures actually said He would die and He would reign.

Nowhere does the scripture say He will return before the tribulation and after. Scripture only points to a return after.

You cannot use an argument using what scripture actually states (His death and His reign) in order to support something it doesn't (two returns.)

Proof #4:

The Known Day and the Unknown Day

Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return.

The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27).

The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8).

The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

First there is no scripture that speaks of a 7 year tribulation.

The tribulation runs for half of Daniels 70th week of 2520 days, therefore it lasts 1260 days.

As for Jesus returning at an unknown time. When Jesus mentions this unknown time it is always in relation to His return AFTER the tribulation.

He never once uses it to describe a pre-7 years return Matt 24:36.

The onus is on the pre-tribbers to prove from scripture that this is a pre-trib event He is speaking about.

Reading Matt. 24:29-36 before 25:13 proves this is a post-tribulation event.

Where does scripture say the Jews will see Jesus return exactly after 1260 days?

All the scripture says is the woman (Israel) is protected for 1260 days. And do not forget according to Daniel 12 there is at least another 75 days after the 1260 days.

He could come any time after the tribulation.

Proof #5:

A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)

The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven.

We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out.

This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

This is your interpretation based on supposition but not one word of scripture to support it.

Proof #6:

"Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)

A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church.

The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12).

Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1.

The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

Okay let's say it "could be the rapture of the church."

But we can also suppose it may just have been a word for John.

Where scripture is silent so should we be.

Also if one reads Revelation 11

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

It seems to me they prophesy for the last half of the 7 years not the first half.

We are first told the Gentiles will trample the Holy city for 42 months which is equal to 1260 days.

It is then we are informed of the appearance of the two witnesses. But whatever, we are shown not one scrap of scriptural evidence for a pre-trib rapture.

2nd point:

The church is mentioned in the first 3 chapters because Jesus is addressing 7 churches.

It would be a surprise if the word was not mentioned.

What does this prove?

You cannot make a doctrine out of silence but only from what the word of God says.

Not what it doesn't say!

Who are the "saints" mentioned throughout Revelation?

Oh, I see. People who get saved after the church is gone. (Where does it say this?)

So if they are saved they are christians.

If they are christians they are members of the church.

If they are members of the church why does the rest of the church have to be removed earlier?

And if they are saints they must be the ones who are camped around the Lord in the Millennium when Satan is released in Rev. 21:7-9.

Funny, no mention of the church here either??

So where is the church at this time.

Not reigning with Christ on earth because she isn't mentioned...is she?

But this IS the church. The saints mentioned all through the Revelation are the church.

How odd that pre-tribbers are happy to call members of the church "saints" all through the New Testament until we get to Revelation. Then they become "tribulation saints" people saved after the church is gone. That is not consistant.

Proof #7:

The 24 elders have their crowns.

After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10).

We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

I have to admit this one does puzzle me.

But in light of the rest of scripture I cannot say they are resurrected saints.

The verses in Rev 5 are problematic in that the song appears to be sung both by the beasts and the elders. Also I understand that some versions have them saying "You have redeemed men..." not "us".

So I have to leave that as an unanswered one. Scripture never reveals their identity.

Proof #8

Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)

The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4).

These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

We have already established these are part of the first resurrection.

But there is no timing given for when they went to heaven apart from the fact they suddenly appear in heaven after the tribulation, just before Armageddon. So where is the evidence here for a rapture 7 years earlier?

Proof #9:

Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)

Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation.

Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out."

Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test.

But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home.

The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

This is the same term used by Jesus in His prayer in

John 17.14 I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one.

The Greek term means to protect from evil...not give way to temptation etc.

It has nothing at all to do with physical removal, as John 17 clearly shows.

Proof #10:

Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.

When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture.

There is one huge problem with this interpretation.

If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us?

In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will.

Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture.

No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked.

This gathering is not a resurrection.

Where did any post-tribber state the angels resurrect people?

This is God's work.

His angels merely go and collect them.

That's all the scripture says. Please do not suggest we are saying angels resurrect people. I answer the rest in the next portion.

Proof #11:

Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.

First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind.

Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind.

This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Here the wicked are gathered for judgement and severed from the righteous.

Why cannot this happen at the end when the rapture takes place just around Armageddon as the word states?

This does not have to be two events separated by at least 7 years unless you are trying to prove without scripture that there is a pre-trib rapture.

Proof #12:

Jesus returns from the wedding.

When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36).

At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church.

After the wedding, He will return to earth.

I thought we were waiting to be taken to a wedding. but here we are told to look for Him returning from a wedding.

Interesting.

Proof #13:

Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).

Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there?

At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also."

If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth.

That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Without any disrepect to my Lord Jesus, one of us has to return to where he came from. Either Jesus returns to heaven with us or we return to earth with Him.

I believe we will go to be with Him.

In heaven we shall be in eternity where there is no time.

So any thought of being there 7 years is meaningless.

We could be with Him after the tribulation for seeming ages and return into time a split second after we left.

This presents no problem at all.

Proof #14:

The one who restrains is taken out of the way.

In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed.

We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Why is the church preventing Antichrist becoming world ruler. We didn't stop Hitler or Saddam or Pol Pot did we?

The actual Greek for being taken out of the way could easily refer to Antichrist "coming out of the midst"...being revealed.

Proof #15:

The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)

If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming?

A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

But we have covered this in proof 11.

Besides you have the problem of those killed during the tribulation being part of the first resurrection when according to pre-tribbers the first resurretion happened 7 years earlier.....so you have two first resurrections as well as two second comings and more than one last trumpet.

Proof #16:

Who will populate the Millennium?

If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30).

With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.

But you have just said the saved people who are in the tribulation are part of the first resurrection and therefore have new bodies.

Zechariah 14 answers the problem. It tells us that those who are left from the nations that attacked Jerusalem shall be the ones who enter the millennium.

It is they who rebel and prehaps refuse to worship the Lord at the feast of Tabernacles....believers wouldn't do that.

And besides all this you have failed to provide one scripture that clearly says He will return before the tribulation...not one.
Whereas the only time the Lord Jesus mentions His return to His disciples is after the tribulation. Never before. In fact He tells His followers in the Olivet discourse to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation. Why warn believers of this if they will not be there having been raptured some years earlier?

But having said this...I do hope you are right and I am wrong somehow. But for me scripture is clear.

NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR

2008-12-27T10:34:00.000-08:00

I was recently re-reading the above passage from Mathew 24: 29-42; Mark 13:24-37.

To what day was our Lord refering when He uttered these words?

When I have spoken to pre-trib rapture friends they will often quote these words as support for the pre-trib rapture. A time unknown, unexpected etc. "No man knows the day, Bob."

But here is the thing. If we simply read these words without any preconceptions as to what they mean we discover the Lord Jesus has not so much as whispered anything about a pre-trib rapture to these His closest disciples, the founders of the church, after the Lord of course.

What He is alluding to of course is His return AFTER the tribulation of those days. Not the pre-trib rapture.

So what is my point? Simply this, these words of the Lord cannot be used to support a pre-tribulation removal of the church from the planet.

Why?

Because He wasn't speaking about it at all but of His post-trib return.

My pre-trib brothers and sisters may say "Well that means we only have to count 1260 days from the time antichrist is revealed in the Temple to the end of the tribulation and we'll know when Jesus will be back."

But they are forgetting the fact that there are another 75 days at least after the tribulation (Daniel 12:11-12) and the Lord Himself said in Matthew and Mark "After the tribulation of those days.." Note..."After" Therefore there are more events after the tribulation....including armageddon.

May Messiah bless and keep us all.

A FRIENDS PRE-TRIBULATION COMMENTS ANSWERED FROM POST TRIBULATION STANDPOINT

2008-12-21T08:06:00.000-08:00

This from a friend, Kirk. My thanks to Kirk for the obvious hard work he put into this and for stimulating me to go continually back to the scriptures.

My replies are in red and my scriptures are in italics:

Kirk: Here follows some of my responses to your comments, Brother Bob, which I hope you will read with interest as I have been reading yours.

While the word rapture doesn't appear in the Bible as such, it is indicated by the "catching away" in 1 Thess 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord." Rapture is simply another way of saying "caught up.

Bob: I don't believe I ever disputed the fact of the Rapture. It is the timing I dispute.

Kirk: The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready.

Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven.

Bob: The statements Jesus made are very revealing as regards the timing of the wedding and the judgement.

In the wedding parable He speaks of the foolish virgins who were left outside and after they call and plead He opens to them and says "I know you not."
This statement of the Lord to those not entering the kingdom is virtually the same statement He said He would make to those who call Him Lord but do not truly follow Him and obey His commandments in Matt. 7:21- 23. When speaking of end times and His return the Lord Jesus used many images. But we cannot take any of them and at face value say catagorically they are speaking of a pre-final 7 years rapture of the church. Jesus doesn't say anything about that.

The question surrounding these events is simply "when"? And from a simple reading of the words of Messiah Himself they are words and events that take place after the tribulation not before.

Kirk: Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.

Bob: Again this is misunderstanding of scripture...I think. I am only giving my view here.
So do those false teachers, false christians suddenly shrug their shoulders and say "Okay it's a fair cop. You found me out. What's my sentence"? No. They'll be screaming "But Lord, Lord...." "Let me in. There's been a mistake."

Kirk: When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event.

Bob: Matt. 24:36; Matt. 25:13; Mark 13:35 etc.

Kirk: Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time,

Bob: Yes but unknown to whom? Not to the believer who watches the signs:

1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Kirk: while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4).

Bob: Agreed. But then the Antichrist and Satan vent their anger on the rest of the woman's seed. Who are they?
If the first group that run to hide are Jews who are the others who Antichrist and Satan then turn their anger upon? Let's see.....

Revelation 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
They are Christians! And I know the argument that they are new (Tribulation) believers and the church has already gone. But scripture says of these Tribulation saints .....

Revelation 14:13 (King James Version)
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Now if you are "In the Lord" you are "in Christ" are you not? And if so then you are a member of His body the church.

And so it follows that the argument that the church is not on earth in the Tribulation is false because here are believers "In the Lord" on earth in the Tribulation. Christians, members of the church.

And if that is so where is the argument that says the church must be removed before the final 7 years so the Lord can finish His work with Israel? (Dr. Tommy Ice and others)

It is dead in the water because we have just seen members of the church dying "in the Lord" in the Tribulation. There is no need for the church to be removed. The church IS on earth being persecuted by Satan and the Antichrist because they are the seed of the woman "Israel" and have the testimony of Jesus. Only Christians have that.

Kirk: This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation.

Bob: A 7 year period called the Tribulation? By whom? Not by Jesus, or the Apostles. Not anywhere from Genesis to Revelation.

Kirk: When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation.

Bob: Scripture nowhere says that on day 1261 Jesus comes back! Daniel reveals to us the fact often overlooked by so many that there are in fact another 75 days after the 1260 of the Tribulation....Daniel 12. Also, as has been pointed out above, the ones not surprised by the Lord's coming are the believers. Paul said so. Also as we look at these words of the Lord Jesus where He says He will come as a thief we cannot under any logical exegesis relate this coming as a thief to a pre-Tribulation rapture.

He has just been speaking about His return "after" the Tribulation in Matt. 24:29-36. Where does He slip in a conversation about a pre-Tribulation rapture like a thief? Friends He doesn't. He is still speaking about His post-Trib return like a thief on the Day of the Lord...see below, later.

Kirk: The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation;

Bob: I disagree.

and

Kirk: 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later. In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding.

Bob: Thank you for that. I had not noticed it before. Jesus is returning "from" a wedding. Not going to one. Yet His followers here (His best friends) are told to wait for Him as one returning from a wedding.. How do you get around that? I thought He was coming to take us "to" a wedding? I must study this.

Kirk: In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. (Here is the Rapture.)

Bob: But you just said He is coming for us AFTER the wedding??

Kirk: After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out.

Bob: You say. Scripture says we'll be here through the Tribulation...then the rapture.

Kirk: After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).

Bob: He could take us to heaven at some point after the Tribulaton and return in a split second of time. Why does He need 7 years or so? He lives in eternity where there is no time.

Kirk: The following Scriptures are very convincing to me as well that we are not to go through the Tribulation.

And also because wrath did not fall on the world until in Noah's day, God had shut His beloved up in the ark

Bob: I agree and when did wrath fall?
Genesis 7
10And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Many of my pre-Tribulation friends say as Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood so the church will leave 7 years or so before the final judgement falls.
But that is incorrect.
The wrath fell the self same day Noah and his family entered the ark.

They did not enter the ark seven days earlier but they entered the ark AFTER 7 days. It was during the 7 days they gathered all the animals in then the wrath fell.

Kirk: and in Lot's day, wrath did not fall Sodom until the Lord had removed His beloved from Sodom.

Bob: Exactly. The same day! Not 7 days or even 7 years after Lot left.
Genesis 19
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Bob: When does the wrath of God fall? When IS the Day of the Lord?

Joel 2:31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 3:14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Malachi 4:5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

1 Thessalonians 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Bob: So:
Joel 3 says there will be multitudes in the valley of decision on that day, the Day of the Lord. If we read the whole passage it becomes clear this is the battle of Armageddon which we all know will take place at the second coming of the Lord Jesus after the tribulation.

Zechariah 14 tells us at that time the city of Jerusalem will be attacked and this will stimulate the second coming of the Lord to earth.

Malachi 4:5 says Elijah the prophet will come before the Day of the Lord and many believe one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will be Elijah.

Paul says in 1Thessalonians 5:2 the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and we are to watch for it: 2 Thess. 5:6.

Jesus speaking of His coming after the Tribulation used the same phrase.

Joel 2 says the sun will go dark and the moon will turn to blood at that time.

What does the Messiah Himself say about this? He agrees with His own Jewish prophets and not with Dr. Ice and La Haye et al.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Kirk: And, of course, as you know, Jesus said that it will be as in the days of Noah and Lot when He comes back.

Exactly! Amen

Grace and peace to you,
Kirk

Kirk: 1 Thess 1:9-10 "...to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Bob: As above the wrath falls after the Tribulation when Jesus collects His saints from the earth.
Kirk: 1 Thess 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

Bob: Amen

Kirk: Rev 3:10"Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Bob: This scripture, Revelation 3:10, is used as a proof text for the pre-Trib rapture but closer examination is required. Jesus here uses the same Greek word for "Keep from" as he used in His prayer in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

The Greek word does not mean to remove physically from but to protect through a situation.
In this case in John, Jesus is not asking that His followers be removed from the planet but that God will protect them from falling under the influence of Satan.

Likewise in Revelation 3:10 Jesus will protect His own from the time of deception and evil that will soon engulf the planet. There is no hint of physical removal at all.

Kirk: Rev 3:11"I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown."

Bob: Amen. God bless you Kirk for sharpening my iron. God keep you and bless you in Messiah Yeshua.

SETTING UP STRAW MEN ....BUT WHO IS DOING IT?

2008-12-13T14:12:00.000-08:00

SETTING UP STRAW MEN...BUT WHO IS DOING IT?

Rick said...Bob,What exactly is your answer? You didn't answer the question. You created your own interpretation of what Gary said to try to suit your argument.This is another cop out technique similar to the straw man to avoid answering a question.

Hey now let's not start to accuse each other of copping out or avoiding answering questions.That's not nice and it is certainly not true.I answered the question. Jesus said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church. Daniel and Revelation state Antichrist will prevail against the saints. You guys are asking "How can these be compatible if the church mentioned by Jesus cannot be prevailed upon by the gates of Hell and the saints (church) mentioned in Daniel and Revelation are prevailed upon by the antichrist?Am I correct so far?Have I copped out, ducked or avoided the question? Maybe you just do not like the fact that I answered you when you told Gary I wouldn't??Let's look at your mail. You wrote:

Are YOU (not Gary), saying that Satan can not make war with the saints but the AC can?

Huh?! No I am saying the church universal will never be defeated by satan, antichrist, Hitler or anyone.. Persecuted, hunted down, killed but never defeated.

Look through history.

The persecutions, martyrdoms etc.

Was the church beaten?

Did the gates of hell prevail in destroying what God had established?

No.

Likewise the persecution by the antichrist on the church of the last days may seem like a success to him and his followers but the church can never be destroyed even through death because we are in christ.

Those in christ have eternal life therefore the church can never be destroyed.

Kill us and we shall still stand on the earth in the last day. Amen

Beside all this Jesus himself said in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that when he returns after the tribulation he will gather his elect from all over.

So there will still be believers on the earth.

Revelation 14:13 states "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord..." speaking of those who die during the reign of the antichrist.

Barnes notes in his commentary on Revelation 14: 13 "The assurance, then, is limited to those who are sincere Christians."
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I always thought that to be "in the Lord" means to be "in Christ."

In other words a member of His church.

Therefore according to Revelation 14:13 these people are christians...members of the church.

Existing during the tribulation when you say the church will be absent.

Again it is you guys who are putting up straw men to support an untenable argument.

My point is and has been this: there is no scriptural justification for a pre-tribulation rapture.

Not when Jesus said he would return after the tribulation, when the angels told the disciples Jesus would return to the Mount of Olives.

You are the ones who must prove from scripture that the church is removed before the final 7 years.

I know we are not appointed to wrath. We know wrath falls on the Day of the Lord.

Most pre-tribbers say the 7 years are the Day of the Lord the time of His wrath.

So when does it begin?Joel 2:30-3130 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

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Matthew 24: 29-31
Immediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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Revelation 612.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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When did Jesus say this would happen?

After the tribulation.

The tribulation is not God's wrath but satan's.

Yes God pours out judgements during this time but the day of His wrath does not come until AFTER the tribulation.

Scripture plainly says so.

Sun dark... after trib.

moon blood..after trib.

both before the Day of the Lord

Then the world is terrified because Jesus gathers the saints and His wrath begins....after the tribulation

Scripture says so.

I could go on but I feel you will not be moved.

This is sad.

Read what Jesus said about His return.

He said it would be after the tribulation.

He said it would be after the tribulation, after the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood and the stars fall...then the Day of the Lord will begin as Joel, Jesus, and Revelation state.

I am not setting up straw men.

Why should I when a plain reading of scripture shows exactly when these things shall be.

Read and trust others if you will but I must go by Jesus and the prophet's words.

He and they said after the tribulation.

The church fathers, the disciples of the disciples said after the tribulation.

Modern prophecy teachers say before the tribulation.

Just show me where scripture says so. It doesn't.

In fact the word of God says completely the opposite.

It is you my dear brother who is setting up straw men as you have not one shred of scripture to show me Jesus returning before the tribulation. Not one.

I have shown you several pointing to a post tribulational return and rapture.

I wish I was wrong.

I wish there were a scripture that states He will return before the antichrist but it isn't there.

May God bless you my beloved brother.

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL.....

2008-12-13T12:52:00.000-08:00

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL.....

Another very interesting question from our brother Gary, my answers in red:

Gary said...I'll repeat here what I posted on the other blog.....compare Matthew 16:18-"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."with the Scriptures that speak about the Antichrist making war against the saints?Daniel tells us, “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them” (7:21).InRevelation 13:7, we read, “And it was given unto him [the Anti-christ] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.How can the 2 positions be reconciled unless the first refers to the pre wrath raptured church,and the Daniel and Revelation passages refer to the tribulation saints?I believe this poses a bit of a dilemma for the post trib positionalso-a question....how many separate times has Jesus appeared on earth?

Okay,So Gary is saying Satan cannot prevail against the church but that does not mean that at certain times in history even to the present day christians have not been persecuted, butchered and driven from one country to the next. Indeed when antichrist is revealed he will persecute the saints and prevail against them but the gates of hell will not prevailJN Darby states: "The expression "The gates of hades," of the invisible world, refers to this kingdom of Satan. It is then on this power, which leaves the stronghold of the enemy without strength, that the assembly is built. The life of God shall not be destroyed. The Son of the living God shall not be overcome. That; then, which God founds upon this rock of the unchangeable power of life in His Son shall not be overthrown by the kingdom of death."John Wesley writes: "The gates of hell - As gates and walls were the strength of cities, and as courts of judicature were held in their gates, this phrase properly signifies the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Shall not prevail against it - Not against the Church universal, so as to destroy it. And they never did. There hath been a small remnant in all ages."
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These latter day saints (not Mormons) do not constitute the entire church throughout history.
It is the church universal that shall never be beaten.
What about the perecutions throughout history against different christians? Was scripture made null and void then? Of course not. These scriptures Dan. 7; Matt 16 and Rev. 13. are compatible.

Rick wrote:
Bob seems to think that the church not being mentioned after Rev 3 doesn't mean anything and that Church and Saints are both interchangable terms. But if we change the word saints to church in Revelation 13:7 then we have a huge problem with it being a complete contradiciction to Matthew 16:18.

So we are to say the saints in Revelation are NOT the church?
Okay let's agree then.
The saints in Revelation are NOT the church but are tribulation saints, those people converted after the rapture.

Now let's read Revelation 20:7-10 which is an account of the events after armageddon and into the 1,000 year reign with christ :

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Just look at verse 9 again...so the camp of the saints and the beloved city is nothing to do with the church??

Where is the church then?

It is strange that all through the New Testament saints are the church until we get to Revelation. Then they magically turn into tribulaton converts. That is not consistant.
Blessings

PRE-TRIBULATION QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

2008-12-12T10:17:00.000-08:00

Well I have had some replies to my invitation to present a pre-trib view from scripture.

And very interesting and challenging they are too.
So I shall post them here over the next few days with my reply in red.

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12 December 2008 07:12
keeping the faith said...
Just 3 questions

Who goes through to the millenium? Zechariah 14 tells us of those who are "left" of all the nations that came against Jerusalem in the final battle. These shall go up every year to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles. If they do not go up they shall receive a curse from the Lord. These are the ones who go into the Millenium and have offspring the decendants of which shall eventually revolt against the Lord after the 1,000 year reign. Rev. 20:7-15

If all the church is still on earth, when does the change from a human body to perfect body take place?

At the rapture, after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.

And lastly.

What does Paul mean when he talks of meeting the Lord in the air? As above at the rapture.

after the millenium doesn't the lord come to earth and land on Mount Olivet? No, He comes to the Mount of Olives after the tribulation and then sets up his Millenial reign on earth. Zechariah 14: 1-9; Acts 1:9-12.

Quote***Why do this (warn of the abomination of desolation) if we are not going to be here? But if we are not going to enter it why would the Lord Jesus warn his closest friends in Matthew 24 about the Abomination of Desolation? Why tell the Gospel message? Jesus said ''Narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it''Why tell about Hell? I'm not going to be there either...I'm afraid that doesn't wash either Bob The argument doesn't run well. We are warned to be saved from going to Hell. No praise God you will not be in Hell because you have been warned to avoid it by being saved. But Jesus warned His disciples (the church) to run WHEN THEY SEE the abomination of desolation. They will see it. It is not a warning to avoid seeing it or being around at that time. Jesus is saying His disciples will see the abomination.

...sorryAs for the abomination of desolation, this is for the Jewish people. It is in theit Temple that he will desecrate. So if, as you suggest, Jesus is warning the Jewish people why did He not do that here? Instead as we read in Matthew and Mark and Luke His closest followers had a PRIVATE discussion with Him and Jesus warns...not the Jewish people....but His followers who you say will not even see it. Nowhere do we read He warned the Jews of the antichrist desecrating the temple as he surely will do. It is a sign for believers to escape and in doing so warn Jews and anyone else that the time has come to run.

After chapter 3 in Revelation the Word ''Church'' is not mentioned. Which means?? You are attempting to create a doctrine out of silence. Because the word "church" is not mentioned after chapter 3 you assume from the silence that the church is absent. Okay, so let's follow your argument to its logical, consistant conclusion. Because the church is not mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude it means it was absent and in heaven? Of course not.
You cannot make an argument out of silence. Thanks for your imput. It makes the blog work well when we all contribute.

PRE-TRIBULATION VIEWS

2008-12-11T10:19:00.000-08:00

Hi friends,

Apologies to my pre-trib friend "Expecting Imminently" as I seemed to miss his post to me.

Below is Imm's view

" There is One 2nd coming identified at the end of the 7 yrs of Jacobs trouble. E.g.

1) Christ returns to the earth. His feet stand upon the Mount of Olives. Touchdown!

2) He comes WITH the church,

3) After, the Great White Throne judgment. Books opened, sin judged.

4) Separation of sheep and goats. Etc

This is pre-empted by the removal of the church. Identified as ‘Caught up” eg..

1)Christ comes in the air = Liftoff.

2) He comes FOR the church.

3)After which is the Bema seat judgment of Christ for works done in the flesh.

4)No separations.

Etc.Obviously quite different events, for different purposes."
-------------------------------------------------------
Now taking Imm's list here is how I and other Post tribbers see it:

There is One 2nd coming identified at the end of the 7 yrs of Jacob's trouble. E.g.

1) Christ comes in the air = Liftoff

He comes FOR the church Matt 24; 1 Thes. 4; 1 Cor. 15; Rev. 11; 16; 19 etc.

Christ returns to the earth. He comes WITH the church, Zech. 14; Rev 19; etc

His feet stand upon the Mount of Olives. Touchdown! Zech 14; Acts 1.

After which is the Bema seat judgment of Christ for works done in the flesh
(Not sure where to place this as the Lord could in an instant take us to heaven where we are judged and rewarded then we could return to the sky a split second after we left...simply because God is not ruled by time but exists in eternity.)

After this, the Millennium, the 1,000 year reign of Christ from Jerusalem, after which the Great White Throne judgment. Books opened, sin judged.
Separation of sheep and goats. Etc

Obviously one event, for different purposes.

But if you have a pre-trib midset you can't see the logic of the above. You have been taught a pre-trib escape but with not one shred of scripture that states the Lord will come twice!

Scripture only speaks of one return.

Jesus said it.

The angels said it.

But we'd rather believe "Left Behind."

The pre-tribbers have the task of proving from scripture, not from inference, not from Jewish wedding stories, but from plain scripture that there are 2 returns of Christ.

One before the tribulation and one after. Where is that scripture?

Jesus only spoke of one return...after the tribulation....and He said this to his best friends who would be the fathers of the church.

The angels on Olivet only spoke of one return, the one to the Mount of Olives....and they said this to the disciples His followers.

This is what they were taught by the angels and by Christ to expect. One coming.. at the end.

Pre-tribbers are fond of using the Jewish wedding feast as a picture of the church going to heaven for 7 years (one week) as they enter their new home as is done in Jewish weddings.

Then why not carry it to its logical conclusion. What a peculiar wedding / marriage!

After the 7 years wedding feast in their new home the bridegroom takes them away from their new home to earth for a thousand years!!!???

This is never mentioned because it doesn't fit the faulty theology.

Also I challenge my pre-trib friends to show me one scripture that speaks of a marriage supper in heaven lasting for 7 years.

Again the theology is based on supposition and believing what our favourite teachers tell us but we do not check out what they say alongside the scriptures.

This makes me and others so very sad.

Also I can hear some friends saying "So we go up to meet the Lord then come back down to earth. Like some kind of yo-yo."

But whether it is us or the Lord, one of us has to return to where we came from. So are you saying the pre-trib return to heaven is the Lord acting like a yo-yo?

Surely not.

May Messiah bless you

PRE-TRIB EXPLANATIONS PLEASE

2008-12-11T09:57:00.000-08:00

Hi again friends,

In case you missed the last few posts I have placed the important one below. I have been accused of misrepresenting the pre-trib rapture view in this particular post.

I have simply asked for my pre-trib friends to point out to me where I misrepresented them.

The points I made are as follows:

Instead of one "first resurrection" of believers (Rev. 19) pre-tribs have 2 "firsts".

One before the Tribulation I Thes. 4 and one at the end Rev 19.

I now believe they are clearly one and the same event Paul and John are writing about.

Instead of one second coming of the Lord Jesus pre-tribs believe there are 2.

One before the Tribulation 1 Thes. 4 and one after the Tribulation Revelation 19.

Instead of one "Last trumpet" 1 Thes 4 Pre-tribs believe there are at least 7 more trumpets after the Last.

But a close look at Revelation shows the 7th trumpet dovetails into the trumpet of Thessalonians.

So just for starters they have:

2 first resurrections

2 second comings

2 last trumpets.

Comments please.

COMMENTS BOX IS NOW OPEN

2008-12-11T02:20:00.000-08:00

Hi friends,

Apologies to those of you who tried to leave comments but were unable.

My fault. The comments box is now open for all.

Please leave comments, especially regarding the post below.

Thanks and God bless

AN INVITATION TO PUT THE PRE-TRIB VIEW

2008-12-10T13:37:00.000-08:00

Dear friends it would appear from some of the comments received that I have misrepresented the pre-tribulation view. If that is the case I really do apologise.

So here is an offer you can't refuse. Please write an outline of the pre-tribulation view and I shall put it here on the blog.

I reserve the right to use portions of several comments if more than one person writes in.

Then in the following post I shall, with the Lord's help, try real hard to defend the post trib position by answering your pre-trib points.

That seems to be the way to go rather than me be accused of setting up straw men...lol.

Thanks for all your comments. God bless.

WELCOME

2008-12-08T18:21:00.000-08:00

Hi everyone,

Welcome to this new forum on the post Tribulation, pre-Millennial rapture of the church and return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Let me begin by saying I was a pre-Tribber for over 40 years so I think I am comfortable as far as understanding the pre-trib position goes.

My journey from Pre to Post began when I was invited to speak on the pre-Tribulation rapture.
Although I did get the message together I was rattled to discover that much of what I was preaching was based on assuption and not just the clear word of God.

After 40 years of simply believing what I had been taught was "just so" it came as a real wake up call to discover things were not so simple.

Instead of one "first resurrection" of believers (Rev. 19) pre-tribs have 2 "firsts". One before the Tribulation I Thes. 4 and one at the end Rev 19. I now believe they are clearly one and the same event Paul and John are writing about.

Instead of one second coming of the Lord Jesus pre-tribs believe there are 2. One before the Tribulation 1 Thes. 4 and one after the Tribulation Revelation 19.

Instead of one "Last trumpet" 1 Thes 4 Pre- tribs believe there are at least 7 more trumpets after the Last.
But a close look at Revelation shows the 7th trumpet dovetails into the trumpet of Thessalonians.

So just for starters they have:

2 first resurrections

2 second comings

2 last trumpets.

I have found:

The resurrections are one.

The second coming is one event

The trumpet of 1 Thes. 4 is the same as the last trumpet of Revelation.

And all occur after the Great Tribulation.

Now all I ask is that we examine these things and more as we go along together.

Explain to me from scripture ...please>>>>>

the 2 first resurrections when the bible says one.

the 2 second comings when the bible says one

the 2 last trumpets..one in 1 Thessalonians and the other in Revelation

How can there be more than one "first" resurrection,
more than one "second" coming,
more than one "last" trumpet?

Any additional comments from you that I believe could develope I shall put as a post so we can all comment on that particular post.

May Messiah bless you.